People with disabilities on both sides of the fence
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26-01-2013, 11:49 AM
RE: People with disabilities on both sides of the fence
(26-01-2013 09:52 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Chas.

If evolution is considered the exclusive domain of biology, then sure, saying we've redefined fitness (I assume you mean via things like technology and other cultural concerns) makes some kind of sense.

But when Darwinism is considered the universal governing force that it actually is, then nothing has been redefined. Fitness means the exact same thing always. No trait is ever adaptive as an absolute. So the fact that there are things that are adaptive today that weren't before is no kind of redefinition (especially including the cultural traits that were formerly excluded from the mix). What fitness is is always the same. What traits make something fit always changes.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt


Yep, referring to human biological fitness; just re-emphasizing the universality of the algorithm.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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26-01-2013, 05:11 PM
RE: People with disabilities on both sides of the fence
(25-01-2013 11:20 AM)pxlgirl Wrote:  Whenever I watch religious debates, theists often come up with an argument against evolution pointing out that eliminating people with disabilities is a consequence of the "fittest to survive" as they do (not) understand it. Of course this is not the case, but it's easy to fall for it if one is not informed enough.
I have a disability myself, which would fall under disabilities and I would be on the theist's list to be eliminated by evolution. But how does religion actually deal with disability? My parents weren't very religious, I was rather treated normal, which made me quite of a fighter. Yet religious people around me would rather be pitiful towards me, insist that I must be an unhappy person. And when god comes into play, it is either a punishment for whatever or some sort of a test for whatever. None of these views are helpful or creditable in any way, apart from a god who isn't there in the first place.

However, on the atheist end, I'm able to tell where someone like me would stand. One thing has caught my eye when I was browsing through this forum, at some point there was a discussion whether people with disabilities have right to live or not (sorry, I'm too lazy to find the link right now Wink), but it was a bit disturbing, as I would quite likely be on the most-wanted list. My point of view is that everybody should be supported and guided as much as it's needed so everyone becomes the best that they can be, as independent as possible, as happy as possible, as strong as possible and, most importantly, learn as much as possible, from life, failures and successes, take as much responsibility for one's own actions and keep fighting.

The main problem I see on both sides is that people can't relate to it and would then assume how they think people with disabilities are supposed to be, act, live. They can't be blamed for not being able to relate, they simply can't just like people with disabilities will never know how it is to be "normal". But all the interpretations and implications is a different story, and if views are as I have mentioned above, there's a long way to go. Thoughts?


I am disabled myself but believe in a darwinian society, survival of the fittest but that does not have to exclude the disabled if they can become productive and useful members of society, take stephen hawking as a great example. Smile
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26-01-2013, 05:33 PM
RE: People with disabilities on both sides of the fence
(26-01-2013 07:43 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, PX.

I'll speak for myself here. Everything we know is ideological. Some people see ideology as a pejorative word. It's not. So yes, we believe everything we know; evidence or no evidence.

What that doesn't mean is, "Yeah, you just believe in evolution, so it's really just BS." Yeah. Not so much.

But I'm with you in that anyone who shits on evolution is going through some serious cognitive dissonance and ignoring some pretty blatant facts. I don't necessarily fault them. Dissonance can be an important protection mechanism in many cases. But it sure would be nice if people saw the light. But to paraphrase Daniel Quinn, anyone waiting for everyone in the world to agree on something is going to be waiting a long time Cool

Hey, Dark.

Since when is this a nudity free zone!?!?!? What the fuck, maaaaaaaaaaan!

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
A few months ago I asked the mods about posted non-pornographic nude images and I never got a firm answer, so I opted not to post what I wanted. Since that time the new rules section pretty clearly states no nudity, which I would presume to mean no nipples or genitalia...I think asses are still okay as long as no holes are exposed, but if you are unsure I'd ask beforehand. Better safe than sorry.

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26-01-2013, 05:39 PM
RE: People with disabilities on both sides of the fence
You know, I'm not perfect. I certainly grew up in the same environment as most of my contemporaries and that environment was both hostile and dismissive towards people with disabilities. To this day, I still don't have much exposure to the disabled and as a result, there is still a great deal that I do not understand and that I am still insensitive to. But I try my best to learn, to grow, to overcome my prejudice and to accept people for who they are. I fall short at times, but I try my hardest.... Unlike Anne Coulter. Anne Coulter is a terrible human being who sucks at life. She not only makes zero effort, but she relishes the ignorance of her hatred. She's intoxicated by it. She wears it like a badge of honour, like it is somehow the same thing as being an empowered, opinionated and outspoken woman. I can only imagine that intelligent, self-actualised women everywhere cringe and have mild seisures when she opens her filth hole. Quite frankly she makes me sick.








Sure, people who have a third copy of their 21st chromosome have a difficult time, but this man demonstrates that one can still be fit even with a severe disability.

Frank's open letter is a remarkable, kind, powerful and full of love. It is inspiring in so many ways and a shining example of the miraculous depths of the human spirit. It takes a big man to look into the mouth of hatred and show nothing but love in return.... I am NOT a big man. Take it away, Henry!





Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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26-01-2013, 09:48 PM
RE: People with disabilities on both sides of the fence
Hi Pxlgirl.
Like your Socratic quote.
R.D. Laing once wrote of 'people playing the game of reality with no real cards in their hands'
Some insensitivity is simply ignorance,other, is egocentric dogma which is probably worse. Thumbsup
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27-01-2013, 07:44 AM
RE: People with disabilities on both sides of the fence
Ann Coulter? And I thought her anti-gay comments were the worst she could come up with, she really outdone herself with that one. And even when most of us oh so evil atheists had tears in their eyes listening to Frank, this chick would not even bat an eyelid... A-fucking-man.

"Some part of our being knows this is where we came from. We long to return, and we can, because the cosmos is also within us. We're made of star stuff. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." (Carl Sagan)
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29-01-2013, 11:47 AM
RE: People with disabilities on both sides of the fence
(25-01-2013 03:54 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Impulse, just FYI, evolution can occur very rapidly.
Yes, that's true. But since the topic is about people with disabilities, I was referring to the evolution of people.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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