Perfect Creation and Death: Another Question I'm Asking Christians
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02-03-2012, 03:33 PM (This post was last modified: 02-03-2012 04:10 PM by kingschosen.)
Perfect Creation and Death: Another Question I'm Asking Christians
I'm wondering if this one will be as volatile as the other... oh well. Onward I march!

I wish to analyze the traditional Christian claims that Adam and Eve were created perfect; moreover, that all creation was perfect as well as whether or not physical death occurred before The Fall. It is also of note that I do not believe in a literal creation account; however, this analysis will be done under the assumption of a traditional literal creation account.

Firstly, we need to take a look at scripture and what it says about God’s creations:

Genesis 1

Creation

4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.
7 God made the [f]expanse, and separated the waters which were below the [g]expanse from the waters which were above the [h]expanse; and it was so.
9 Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so.
10 God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, “Let the earth sprout [j]vegetation, [k]plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after [l]their kind [m]with seed in them”; and it was so.
12 The earth brought forth [n]vegetation, [o]plants yielding seed after [p]their kind, and trees bearing fruit [q]with seed in them, after [r]their kind; and God saw that it was good.
15 and let them be for [u]lights in the [v]expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so.
18 and [ac]to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good.
21 God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after [ag]their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after [ah]their kind”; and it was so.
25 God made the beasts of the earth after [ai]their kind, and the cattle after [aj]their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.


Man
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the [ak]sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the [al]sky and over every living thing that [am]moves on the earth.” 29 Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the [an]surface of all the earth, and every tree [ao]which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the [ap]sky and to every thing that [aq]moves on the earth [ar]which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so. 31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

3 Ways Scripture describes creations

1) It was so
Gen 1:7 http://biblos.com/genesis/1-7.htm
“and it was” http://concordances.org/hebrew/1961.htm
“so” http://concordances.org/hebrew/3651.htm
In this phrase, there is nothing ambiguous; as it simply means “become so”.

2) Good
Gen 1:10 http://biblos.com/genesis/1-10.htm
“good” http://concordances.org/hebrew/2896.htm
Root word of “good” http://concordances.org/hebrew/2895.htm
So, from the Hebrew, “good” does not mean “perfect”. “Good” means “beautiful” or “pleasing”.

3) Image and Likeness
Gen 1:26 http://biblos.com/genesis/1-26.htm
“Our image” http://concordances.org/hebrew/6754.htm
“to Our likeness” http://concordances.org/hebrew/1823.htm
Root word for “to Our likeness” http://concordances.org/hebrew/1819.htm
God did not duplicate Himself. It was a resemblance, a representation, or a similitude. The degree of likeness placed onto humanity is not described.

Summary: God created a likeness of Himself and saw that it was beautiful and pleasing to Himself. The rest of creation was similar and became “as so”.


Now, the argument can be made that God created humanity perfect and without sin but with the propensity to sin. Let’s analyze this:

Under the assumption that God created Adam and Eve perfect and without sin, it is philosophically and logically honest to conclude that perfection cannot choose imperfection. A perfect being cannot choose to be imperfect, if it could, it would no longer be perfect. The propensity to sin is imperfect; thus nullifying perfection.

A propensity to sin has to be bestowed, and the only way it can be bestowed is upon an imperfect, sinful nature. In order to sin, man had to be sinful.

Infinite cannot be finite. If it is, it ceases to be. 100% cannot be 99.999999999999%. If it is, it ceases to be. Likewise, perfect cannot be imperfect because it would cease to be. What this means is that it is logically impossible for something that is perfect to actively choose to be imperfect. If this choice was made, the chooser was not perfect.

Delving further into this analysis, we see another contradiction of logistics. If God created something perfect, then He created Himself; as there He is the only example of perfection. It is evident in scripture, that there is only one God, and that He created everything else; thus, making everything else subservient. If this is so, then everything He created has to be imperfect; if it’s not, then it is God.

Summary: If man is given a propensity to sin, man has to be sinful.


Was there death before the fall?

What does scripture say?

Genesis 2
17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not [n]eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

Genesis 3
3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’” 4 The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!

Let’s do more logical analysis:

If there was no death, how did Adam know what death was? How did Eve know what the consequence was? If there was no prior death, death would have to be explained because it would be completely foreign. God did not have to explain death to Adam. The serpent did not have to explain death to Eve, which also begs the question, “How does the serpent even know what death is?”

How does a being with limited knowledge have knowledge of something that has never happened? Certainly, only God who has infinite knowledge would know and understand death and not any other being if death was not in existence.

As always, let’s look further. This time biologically.

Why do Adam and Eve need to eat? The need to eat is a sign of mortality. It is a biological sign that your body is consuming energy and without that energy you will eventually die. The need to eat is evidence of the propensity to starve. Using the aforementioned logic of perfection and propensity to sin, it is a safe conclusion to say that the propensity to starve equates to a propensity for death.

Now, this leaves the question of what was this “death” if it wasn’t physical death?

Many scholars and theologians conclude that it was a spiritual death. Being that Adam was now in a covenant relationship with God and was capable of sin, his sin did not result in physical death but a breach in the covenant which resulted in a spiritual death.

Paul likened this to Christ. Christ’s salvation wasn’t physical; it was spiritual. So, because of Adam’s sin we have spiritual death, but because of Christ’s sacrifice we have spiritual life.

Rom 5:18-19
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Summary: The curse of death isn’t a physical death as it was already in existence. The curse was a curse to all mankind that they would receive a spiritual death without Christ.

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02-03-2012, 03:55 PM (This post was last modified: 02-03-2012 03:56 PM by morondog.)
RE: Perfect Creation and Death: Another Question I'm Asking Christians
Egads mon ami. I salute your willingness to write screeds of analysis on tribal legends. If we could just tempt ol' Sharky out from under his rock we might get to see a real live Christian fight... as for me, you've utterly convinced me. What those other Christians say is definite nonsense Tongue
Ooo wait I didn't see that this was destined for the facebook page! Woohoo! KC trips lightly down the broad and straight path with nary a fear Big Grin
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02-03-2012, 03:57 PM (This post was last modified: 02-03-2012 04:02 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: Perfect Creation and Death: Another Question I'm Asking Christians
(02-03-2012 03:55 PM)morondog Wrote:  Egads mon ami. I salute your willingness to write screeds of analysis on tribal legends. If we could just tempt ol' Sharky out from under his rock we might get to see a real live Christian fight... as for me, you've utterly convinced me. What those other Christians say is definite nonsense Tongue

lol thanks

The thing is, if I'm going to claim to be a Christian, I had better be learned and educated and understand the theology I follow. I find many Christians don't do this.
(02-03-2012 03:55 PM)morondog Wrote:  Ooo wait I didn't see that this was destined for the facebook page! Woohoo! KC trips lightly down the broad and straight path with nary a fear Big Grin

Heh, yeah. It'll be interesting. I'm just hoping it doesn't coax out an ignoramus like it did last time.

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02-03-2012, 06:38 PM
RE: Perfect Creation and Death: Another Question I'm Asking Christians
Hmmm… Interesting… I’ll just be over here with some popcorn…

A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. Friedrich Nietzsche
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02-03-2012, 06:42 PM
RE: Perfect Creation and Death: Another Question I'm Asking Christians
You silly KC.
This is where you will learn the most about atheists that you could ever learn. Defending truth. Trying to make sense of the bible in any way, even your completely insane way is always an uphill battle.


"Heh, yeah. It'll be interesting. I'm just hoping it doesn't coax out an ignoramus like it did last time." - Captain Crazy


It always will man. It always will.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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