Perfection and Morality
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16-06-2014, 04:18 PM
Perfection and Morality
It seems to me that many theists claim that a perfect god exists and that somehow perfection involves benevolence. How do they justify this conclusion exactly because no matter how many times it is explained it makes no sense and being very well versed in philosophy this just puzzles me.

Perfection is in reality a paradox and is simply the ability to negate all things(good or evil). To be untouched and flawless while also being monistic and the creator of all possible hypothetical flaws. For a god to be claimed as perfect it would require that this being would be capable of creating a world with a specific intent and outcome and never fail doing so. Yet Allah and Yahweh failed once for every 2 pages in the Bible and Qur'an. Considering that perfection goes hand in hand with Omnimaximal attributes how can benevolence and not malevolence be the norm of perfection?

are theologian simply making claims so absurd they only sound fancy and make no sense?

Crazy you say?
Wouldn't a crazy man ask another man if he was crazy?! Hobo
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16-06-2014, 05:01 PM
RE: Perfection and Morality
I don't know if it's a recent trend or I'm just late in picking up on it.
I've noticed how some theists have taken to saying whatever crazy notions pop into their heads without concern for truth, or evidence.
The recent "debate" between Sye Ten Bruggencate and Matt Dillahunty is a good example.
Our own Jeremy Walker is another.
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16-06-2014, 05:44 PM
RE: Perfection and Morality
(16-06-2014 04:18 PM)Mr. Slave Wrote:  ...
are theologian simply making claims so absurd they only sound fancy and make no sense?

I'm guessing that that ^^^ was rhetorical, right?

Yes

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01-07-2014, 05:15 PM
RE: Perfection and Morality
Shameless plug alert (if I'm not allowed to do this then by all means remove the link)

It's seemed to me for a long time now that an all-perfect God with an all-perfect heaven are actually incompatible with the human experience. Indeed - if nothing was wrong in heaven then nothing would happen....

Some further thoughts... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh0AI-J8oOM

Just my two penn'orth
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01-07-2014, 05:37 PM
RE: Perfection and Morality
(16-06-2014 04:18 PM)Mr. Slave Wrote:  It seems to me that many theists claim that a perfect god exists and that somehow perfection involves benevolence. How do they justify this conclusion exactly because no matter how many times it is explained it makes no sense and being very well versed in philosophy this just puzzles me.

Perfection is in reality a paradox and is simply the ability to negate all things(good or evil). To be untouched and flawless while also being monistic and the creator of all possible hypothetical flaws. For a god to be claimed as perfect it would require that this being would be capable of creating a world with a specific intent and outcome and never fail doing so. Yet Allah and Yahweh failed once for every 2 pages in the Bible and Qur'an. Considering that perfection goes hand in hand with Omnimaximal attributes how can benevolence and not malevolence be the norm of perfection?

are theologian simply making claims so absurd they only sound fancy and make no sense?

I know a living Buddha, he's my master. He is a doctor in theology. He never teaches anything that we can't find out for ourselves, but the Buddhist Perfection is really the inherent perfection of the universe. My master, being a Buddha, has embraced that perfection. So, morally, everything he does is morally good because he is perfect.
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01-07-2014, 05:48 PM
RE: Perfection and Morality
(01-07-2014 05:37 PM)Rinpoche Wrote:  
(16-06-2014 04:18 PM)Mr. Slave Wrote:  It seems to me that many theists claim that a perfect god exists and that somehow perfection involves benevolence. How do they justify this conclusion exactly because no matter how many times it is explained it makes no sense and being very well versed in philosophy this just puzzles me.

Perfection is in reality a paradox and is simply the ability to negate all things(good or evil). To be untouched and flawless while also being monistic and the creator of all possible hypothetical flaws. For a god to be claimed as perfect it would require that this being would be capable of creating a world with a specific intent and outcome and never fail doing so. Yet Allah and Yahweh failed once for every 2 pages in the Bible and Qur'an. Considering that perfection goes hand in hand with Omnimaximal attributes how can benevolence and not malevolence be the norm of perfection?

are theologian simply making claims so absurd they only sound fancy and make no sense?

I know a living Buddha, he's my master. He is a doctor in theology. He never teaches anything that we can't find out for ourselves, but the Buddhist Perfection is really the inherent perfection of the universe. My master, being a Buddha, has embraced that perfection. So, morally, everything he does is morally good because he is perfect.

That doesn't necessarily follow - he is human and thus imperfect and as flawed as anybody else. For someone who claims in your opening post to not believe in any gods I don't see how you can then say what you've said on this thread...
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01-07-2014, 05:51 PM
RE: Perfection and Morality
(01-07-2014 05:48 PM)CiderThinker Wrote:  
(01-07-2014 05:37 PM)Rinpoche Wrote:  I know a living Buddha, he's my master. He is a doctor in theology. He never teaches anything that we can't find out for ourselves, but the Buddhist Perfection is really the inherent perfection of the universe. My master, being a Buddha, has embraced that perfection. So, morally, everything he does is morally good because he is perfect.

That doesn't necessarily follow - he is human and thus imperfect and as flawed as anybody else. For someone who claims in your opening post to not believe in any gods I don't see how you can then say what you've said on this thread...

What about him being perfect makes him a God? Isn't that the point of the thread? Do you know about Buddhism?
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01-07-2014, 05:55 PM
RE: Perfection and Morality
(01-07-2014 05:51 PM)Rinpoche Wrote:  
(01-07-2014 05:48 PM)CiderThinker Wrote:  That doesn't necessarily follow - he is human and thus imperfect and as flawed as anybody else. For someone who claims in your opening post to not believe in any gods I don't see how you can then say what you've said on this thread...

What about him being perfect makes him a God? Isn't that the point of the thread? Do you know about Buddhism?

Yes I do, I've dabbled in it and there are to my mind some highly worthwhile lessons to be learned from it. But your assertion that a man is perfect is unjustified - you may not define that as a god but nevertheless I disagree with your view of his perfection...
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01-07-2014, 06:05 PM
RE: Perfection and Morality
(01-07-2014 05:55 PM)CiderThinker Wrote:  
(01-07-2014 05:51 PM)Rinpoche Wrote:  What about him being perfect makes him a God? Isn't that the point of the thread? Do you know about Buddhism?

Yes I do, I've dabbled in it and there are to my mind some highly worthwhile lessons to be learned from it. But your assertion that a man is perfect is unjustified - you may not define that as a god but nevertheless I disagree with your view of his perfection...

If you research His Holiness and have correct understanding of him, you will see that back in Tibet he performed many well documented feats of supernatural power. He also delivered the required magnificent art: http://www.iamasf.org/dorjechang.php all in all, he is in my Buddhist view, as perfect as one can possibly be. But his perfection is the perfection of the universe incarnate. After all, you should know that the purpose of Buddhism is to become one with the universe.
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01-07-2014, 06:11 PM
RE: Perfection and Morality
I think the biggest issue is not with describing god with this attribute but with the word itself. "Perfection" is ill defined in most every context. When using the term to describe something that can also be described with mathematical properties, such as efficiency, or a preciseness, or an exactness, there is always a better and more accurate word for that same thing (as evident by the ones I listed in this sentence). When describing something intangible, like beauty or divinity, it loses essentially all meaning. "Perfect", when referring to god, can mean almost anything you want it to. It essentially means that you find no flaw, with "flaw" and "imperfection" being equally subjective and poorly defined terms.

Having read much of the bible I never encountered a verse that made the claim that god was perfect, at least not in that language. Everything god does is good, god can do anything, and god knows everything; the bible claims these properties. It might be difficult to pin down a definition for "good" (see JAA's thread Wink ) but at least the others have been clearly defined.

It is an interesting point you raise, and I think it speaks right to the fallacy of the entire "god myth" complex. Gods essentially embody all of the attributes and strengths that are important to the believer. If you try and find some sort of root properties, or something that might qualify as a formal definition for what a god is, you arrive not at some sort of coherent identify, but rather at some manifestation of the believers shortcomings. When you describe mathematics or formal logic you do not get insight into the peoples that developed it. Not true with religion. By using the world "perfect" to describe their god it is almost as if they are admitting that "god" is no more than a vacuous hole, where you can assign whatever value you like to "it" without "it" ever having any real meaning.
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