Personal experience argument
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16-07-2015, 09:18 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(16-07-2015 07:21 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(16-07-2015 01:39 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  No, we get defensive because you attack our very core and claim it to be embellishment.

Then maybe it would be wise not to let embellishments into your very core.
Embellishment is a product of assumption. Something that I do not do when it comes to core knowledge.
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16-07-2015, 11:21 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(16-07-2015 09:18 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(16-07-2015 07:21 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  Then maybe it would be wise not to let embellishments into your very core.
Embellishment is a product of assumption. Something that I do not do when it comes to core knowledge.

... Tell us of your personal experience then. I suspect it's boring and there are multiple alternative explanations more plausible than that some miraculous invisible being suddenly chose *you* to be his Holy Vessel, but ja, let's see just how convincing your God is?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-07-2015, 01:52 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
Personal experience = anecdotal evidence which is pretty useless to argue against. My dad tried to tell me that when he had his heart attack that he had a near death experience. Of course, tons of people have them when they are clinically dead and have a serious amount of trauma or a traumatic experience and are revived. Neuroscience has also replicated it a few times by stimulating parts of the brain. Seems to me it's a coping mechanism for serious traumatic experiences when the body is going, "OH SHIT, this is SERIOUS SHIT, fuck this shit, oh shit oh shit oh shit... happy thoughts happy thoughts... fuck fuck." but of course, you try and tell someone that, and they get mad, take it personally, etc.

Instead of arguing with anecdotal evidence, it makes more sense to move it towards other types of arguments. When you argue anecdotal evidence with people, they tend to take it personally, and the, "I don't believe you" factor comes into play which generally gets interpreted as, "You're a liar and your brain is stupid."

Then the wall goes up and they go, "LA LA LA." to the rest of the conversation. Instead, it is easier to steer the argument away from that by mentioning what types of evidence you are willing to accept from a perspective of empirical evidence, since you find things like peer review important, or verifiable, testable, repeatable results, than personal testimony. Although sometimes people are able to understand that the brain is not always the most consistent thing in the world and that scumbag brain isn't able to always be relied upon on things like anecdotal evidence. Same reason a lot of eye witness accounts can't be held up in the court of law, especially over time. So instead, actual evidence has to be used.

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17-07-2015, 06:59 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(16-07-2015 11:21 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(16-07-2015 09:18 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Embellishment is a product of assumption. Something that I do not do when it comes to core knowledge.

... Tell us of your personal experience then. I suspect it's boring and there are multiple alternative explanations more plausible than that some miraculous invisible being suddenly chose *you* to be his Holy Vessel, but ja, let's see just how convincing your God is?
Of course my personal salvation would leave the doubtful with doubt. I will not attempt to explain at this time due to the negativity. I will say that it was very similar to other cases I have heard about. Sudden, complete ease of burden, overwhelming joy and understanding. An outside source of pure good and obvious righteousness instantly explained everything before I could even completely question it. My entire existence was proven to be destined regardless of my abundant lack of belief or care. I'm pretty sure I have described it in some detail on this forum before. Explaining how t again just for your ridicule doesn't really sound too productive.
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17-07-2015, 07:04 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(17-07-2015 01:52 AM)Logisch Wrote:  My dad tried to tell me that when he had his heart attack that he had a near death experience. Of course, tons of people have them when they are clinically dead and have a serious amount of trauma or a traumatic experience and are revived.

Here's some pretty interesting studies and facts about NDE's

http://infidels.org/library/modern/keith...HNDEs.html

http://io9.com/5916403/how-to-have-a-nea...experience
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17-07-2015, 09:21 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(17-07-2015 06:59 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Of course my personal salvation would leave the doubtful with doubt. I will not attempt to explain at this time due to the negativity. I will say that it was very similar to other cases I have heard about. Sudden, complete ease of burden, overwhelming joy and understanding. An outside source of pure good and obvious righteousness instantly explained everything before I could even completely question it. My entire existence was proven to be destined regardless of my abundant lack of belief or care. I'm pretty sure I have described it in some detail on this forum before. Explaining how t again just for your ridicule doesn't really sound too productive.

So... that unconvincing that you can't risk exposing it to the unrelenting glare of skepticism huh? You know, with actual *facts*, or stuff that people believe to be fact, they're never so bloody shy about questioning it. They're not invested in it to the point that they're afraid to test it. If your God's so great, why're you, the mighty preacher man, afraid to speak up and *testify*. Or do you guys only testify in nice safe places like church, where no one's gonna challenge you?

Ooo look, you're being persecuted. Isn't that lovely, now you know Jesus is gonna let you into heaven, because you are *blessed* for His name's sake Smile

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-07-2015, 09:23 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(17-07-2015 06:59 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(16-07-2015 11:21 PM)morondog Wrote:  ... Tell us of your personal experience then. I suspect it's boring and there are multiple alternative explanations more plausible than that some miraculous invisible being suddenly chose *you* to be his Holy Vessel, but ja, let's see just how convincing your God is?
Of course my personal salvation would leave the doubtful with doubt. I will not attempt to explain at this time due to the negativity. I will say that it was very similar to other cases I have heard about. Sudden, complete ease of burden, overwhelming joy and understanding. An outside source of pure good and obvious righteousness instantly explained everything before I could even completely question it. My entire existence was proven to be destined regardless of my abundant lack of belief or care. I'm pretty sure I have described it in some detail on this forum before. Explaining how t again just for your ridicule doesn't really sound too productive.

There are quite good psychological explanations for sudden religious conversion, usually involving priming by the subconscious or personal 'surrender'.

Your experience does nothing to convince anyone else of the truth of your belief - your experience is not evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-07-2015, 09:33 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(16-07-2015 07:53 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(16-07-2015 07:23 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Again, the diaspora begins in the spring of the year and calculations arrive at 1948.4 years AD. .4 times 365 is 146 days in a Gentile year, plus Jan. 1 we have May 27, 1948 AD. Off by 12 days but easily accounted for.

Thanks.

There are no passages in the Bible that say you are supposed to be doing calculations. There is no passage that says you are supposed to add such and such a number together and get to Spring 1948. There are, however, some similarities between the Babylonian exile/return and 1948 Israel. The passages in the Bible are talking about the Babylonian exile/return but many Christians like to twist them and say they are talking about 1948 Israel.

Jesus also says the following in Acts 1:

When they had gathered together they asked him, 'Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?' He [Jesus] answered them, 'It is not for you to know the times or seasons that the Father has established by his own authority."

Very good thinking, Jenny. If I may respond?

The theocratic kingdom of Israel was not restored in 1948. This is more the Ezekiel prophecy of dead bones come to life yet without spiritual life.

And technically speaking, there actually are statements to calculate prophecies in the Bible. Remember, Jesus warned the Pharisees they missed the (calculated) date of His visitation per Daniel. As mentioned elsewhere, the Bible predicted the Messiah would die for sin (I believe it was April 4, 29 AD and Daniel was clearly written earlier as all believers and skeptics know).

But it was actually atheists who (I believe) prompted the Ezekiel calculation. Per the original prophecy under discussion, the Jews should have had a homeland many years ago. Skeptics reported that the Ezekiel prophecy had failed. AFTER 1948, some believers noticed the seven times injunction in the Torah and calculated 7 times the diaspora years remaining under discussion, and said, "Holy Prophecy, Batman! The Bible gave the year and time of Israel's restoration as a Jewish nation!" WOW. You could therefore argue that Zionists and Western sympathizers restored Israel to the Jews to fulfill prophecy, but they had no idea the date in 1948 was fulfilling exact prophecy as they did so! Awesome.

This is not the sole time that skeptics have prompted believers to unearth prophecies and codes. It is this Hegelian synthesis method I find exciting--TTA members pick apart my Bible teaching and often force me to see new gems within (okay, maybe not that often, but I already know God's Word on a working basis from talking to all kinds of people). The Jews have taught for millennia now that God's Word has revelations for those who go deeper... and Jesus Himself taught a parable of two people who looked into God's Word. The one who did so in a shallow manner suffered loss.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments. I'm open if you want to discuss this more!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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17-07-2015, 09:36 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(17-07-2015 01:52 AM)Logisch Wrote:  Personal experience = anecdotal evidence which is pretty useless to argue against. My dad tried to tell me that when he had his heart attack that he had a near death experience. Of course, tons of people have them when they are clinically dead and have a serious amount of trauma or a traumatic experience and are revived. Neuroscience has also replicated it a few times by stimulating parts of the brain. Seems to me it's a coping mechanism for serious traumatic experiences when the body is going, "OH SHIT, this is SERIOUS SHIT, fuck this shit, oh shit oh shit oh shit... happy thoughts happy thoughts... fuck fuck." but of course, you try and tell someone that, and they get mad, take it personally, etc.

Instead of arguing with anecdotal evidence, it makes more sense to move it towards other types of arguments. When you argue anecdotal evidence with people, they tend to take it personally, and the, "I don't believe you" factor comes into play which generally gets interpreted as, "You're a liar and your brain is stupid."

Then the wall goes up and they go, "LA LA LA." to the rest of the conversation. Instead, it is easier to steer the argument away from that by mentioning what types of evidence you are willing to accept from a perspective of empirical evidence, since you find things like peer review important, or verifiable, testable, repeatable results, than personal testimony. Although sometimes people are able to understand that the brain is not always the most consistent thing in the world and that scumbag brain isn't able to always be relied upon on things like anecdotal evidence. Same reason a lot of eye witness accounts can't be held up in the court of law, especially over time. So instead, actual evidence has to be used.

You are scratching where I itch, because, yes, it is useless to argue against personal testimony. Christians cannot logically tell atheists they are in denial, if those atheists have never encountered God personally. Likewise, atheists cannot tell Christians they haven't encountered Jesus Christ personally, but members of both groups do so unendingly.

To quote Bebe and Cece Winans, "I'm not crazy... I've never known anyone who loves me the way that You do, it's hopeless... I'm forever in love..."

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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17-07-2015, 09:39 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(17-07-2015 09:23 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(17-07-2015 06:59 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Of course my personal salvation would leave the doubtful with doubt. I will not attempt to explain at this time due to the negativity. I will say that it was very similar to other cases I have heard about. Sudden, complete ease of burden, overwhelming joy and understanding. An outside source of pure good and obvious righteousness instantly explained everything before I could even completely question it. My entire existence was proven to be destined regardless of my abundant lack of belief or care. I'm pretty sure I have described it in some detail on this forum before. Explaining how t again just for your ridicule doesn't really sound too productive.

There are quite good psychological explanations for sudden religious conversion, usually involving priming by the subconscious or personal 'surrender'.

Your experience does nothing to convince anyone else of the truth of your belief - your experience is not evidence.

Experience, particularly when corroborated by multiple witnesses, may often be taken as facts in evidence in a court of law. I will again ask how you dare consider theists to be deluded when the majority of people who have ever lived in all times, in all cultures, have been theist.

And, there are good psychological explanations for sudden and gradual onset of atheism. Usually they involve lashing out at religious persons, including people who are called "loved ones". Sorry, but TTA members demonstrate this fact repeatedly with their posts. Jesus is a healer, let him heal you of your anger, Chas... seriously.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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