Personal experience argument
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21-07-2015, 10:04 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 09:53 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 09:46 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Without free will we would have no choice in our direction past the need to survive and procreate like the rest of the living things that exhibit complex structure and feeling, yet not evil. We are the only beings that have choice through free will. We actually hold the destiny of all creation on earth in our hands.

You haven't actually defined what you mean by 'free will', but to use the everyday, common-sense understanding of it as being able to make choices, other animals also exhibit degrees of free will.
Indeed they do to an extent. But when it comes down to going there own way through selfish negativity that is counterproductive to there very goal they always choose the path that was played out before them as opposed to denying said way of being.
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21-07-2015, 10:07 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 09:12 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  No. Adam and Eve where without sin which is to say they were without knowledge of good and evil, which is to say that they had no free will prior to attaining knowledge, some of which they weren't to attain at all, hence sin and punishment.

If they had no knowledge of good and evil and no free will then it is irrational to hold them responsible for their actions.

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21-07-2015, 10:11 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 10:07 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 09:12 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  No. Adam and Eve where without sin which is to say they were without knowledge of good and evil, which is to say that they had no free will prior to attaining knowledge, some of which they weren't to attain at all, hence sin and punishment.

If they had no knowledge of good and evil and no free will then it is irrational to hold them responsible for their actions.
They had knowledge of there intended direction through God. Through curiosity instilled by greed they were manipulated. No this greed wasn't instilled by God.
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21-07-2015, 10:18 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 10:11 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 10:07 AM)unfogged Wrote:  If they had no knowledge of good and evil and no free will then it is irrational to hold them responsible for their actions.
They had knowledge of there intended direction through God. Through curiosity instilled by greed they were manipulated. No this greed wasn't instilled by God.

You want it both ways......

You say this "god" person created everything -- then claim greed wasn't instilled by "god"????

Then who did??? His evil twin????


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21-07-2015, 10:20 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 10:02 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 09:53 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Now you get it, this is exactly the true situation you actually may be finding yourself within. There is no reason to view it with some negativity or deem it insignificant.

So could you answer, what makes you believe Free Will has to be some concept involving "evil?"
Balance. Knowledge, by nature is unbiased and therefore enlightens in all both directions as well as the lack there of.

All of the knowledge you acquire is by our human nature biased. It's interpreted via your senses and brains capability of understanding it. It is never gathered at any point by a human without some bias. The point of various fields of study, such as science, is to lessen the degrees of bias to do various forms of testing and having various data interpreters.

This is why, to the topic, personal experience is flawed. We are highly susceptible to trickery and this is well known through studying. it's even why we make so many games dealing with this issue because it's so obvious. Those magic eye puzzles or various other color shading issues will highlight that to us.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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21-07-2015, 10:22 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 10:11 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 10:07 AM)unfogged Wrote:  If they had no knowledge of good and evil and no free will then it is irrational to hold them responsible for their actions.
They had knowledge of there intended direction through God. Through curiosity instilled by greed they were manipulated. No this greed wasn't instilled by God.

That doesn't respond to the point.

If they had no knowledge of good and evil and no free will then it is irrational to hold them responsible for their actions.

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21-07-2015, 10:29 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 10:18 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 10:11 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  They had knowledge of there intended direction through God. Through curiosity instilled by greed they were manipulated. No this greed wasn't instilled by God.

You want it both ways......

You say this "god" person created everything -- then claim greed wasn't instilled by "god"????

Then who did??? His evil twin????


..
Our greed came from the acquisition of certain knowledge. Before that it was shown to us by the beings that were sent to give us knowledge of truth. These beings got it from knowledge. Where did that knowledge come from? That is an area that I am researching. It seems that this knowledge can be linked to darkness and void. The very root and desire of evil. Remember balance. It is only observable by me to be here on earth so I have a little trouble thinking that it is everywhere like good is. However, based on the very nature of evil, it is possible that it hides in plane sight through out the universe and could indeed be part of the balance that is needed for existence. Like I have said; still researching. It is easy to get lost with this type of thought so I will not attempt to study the origins of evil solely, rather in part as I search for truth.
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21-07-2015, 10:31 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 10:04 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 09:53 AM)Chas Wrote:  You haven't actually defined what you mean by 'free will', but to use the everyday, common-sense understanding of it as being able to make choices, other animals also exhibit degrees of free will.
Indeed they do to an extent. But when it comes down to going there own way through selfish negativity that is counterproductive to there very goal they always choose the path that was played out before them as opposed to denying said way of being.

What does that gobbledygook mean? Consider

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-07-2015, 10:33 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 10:22 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 10:11 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  They had knowledge of there intended direction through God. Through curiosity instilled by greed they were manipulated. No this greed wasn't instilled by God.

That doesn't respond to the point.

If they had no knowledge of good and evil and no free will then it is irrational to hold them responsible for their actions.
Bs the right path is shown to everything. They knew not to do what they did for it would kill them. Not kill them directly. This play on words was used to insinuate that the Lord of all creation had lied to them rooting motive with greed, and lust for power.
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21-07-2015, 10:34 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 10:29 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 10:18 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  You want it both ways......

You say this "god" person created everything -- then claim greed wasn't instilled by "god"????

Then who did??? His evil twin????


..
Our greed came from the acquisition of certain knowledge.

What knowledge? Be specific.

Quote:Before that it was shown to us by the beings that were sent to give us knowledge of truth.

What beings? Be specific.

Quote:These beings got it from knowledge.

What knowledge? How do you know this? Citation?

Quote:Where did that knowledge come from? That is an area that I am researching. It seems that this knowledge can be linked to darkness and void. The very root and desire of evil. Remember balance. It is only observable by me to be here on earth so I have a little trouble thinking that it is everywhere like good is. However, based on the very nature of evil, it is possible that it hides in plane sight through out the universe and could indeed be part of the balance that is needed for existence. Like I have said; still researching. It is easy to get lost with this type of thought so I will not attempt to study the origins of evil solely, rather in part as I search for truth.

It is easy to get lost in meaningless imaginings.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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