Personal experience argument
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06-07-2015, 11:22 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(06-07-2015 11:09 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  The trouble with the Personal Experience argument is that people of many religious faiths promote it as proof of their gods too. Hindus have visions of gods as do Muslims and even Native Americans have stories about the visions people have of wondrous spirits and gods. So if personal experience is proof of god then hundreds of gods must exist.....along with Santa Claus. You see, I've had a few personal experiences with Santa myself.Kiss

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06-07-2015, 11:41 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(06-07-2015 01:53 PM)Talviomena Wrote:  Hello, what would you answer to someone who argues a case for Christianity from a personal experience.
I have translated this story from another language, so there might be some typos.

Here's the story:

"I had been an atheist my whole life and thought religous people were just kinda dumb. My whole family were atheists and we didnt have any religous things at home etc. At some point of my life i decided "Okay, let's see in what do they actually believe". I listened to some religous radiostation while reading the bible, i didnt really get into it, but the topic was still sticking with me. One day i was thinking all the contradictions in the bible and still tried to pray from the bottom of my heart. After that something amazing happened.


While i was praying my whole body started to feel this weird power / presence and an amazing feeling of being loved. After that i started to hear this "talking" inside my head, but it wasnt really "talking". If telepathy was real, that's propably how i would explain it to feel. The voice told me it was an angel, but didnt point to any character etc, it was like the angel itself was the message from god, or god or something like that.But in that moment it was very logical. At first it was calming me down and saying multiple times "There is nothing to fear, everything is fine". Even saying it like that, it comes out a little clumsy, because the situation was very non-linear. Just afterwards i have been putting it into a linear order in my head. So i will try to explain it clearly and to dress it so human's could understand it better.


Well, right there it was letting me ask all kinda questions. Every question got answered in a second and i didnt need to ask any follow up questions because all the answers were so perfect. I asked when Jesus is coming back and why did he come in the first place. The most important answer for me was that one of my good friend had passed away couple years ago and i asked how is he doing and God answered "He has been saved, and everything is fine for him."
It was really amazing since i never thought my friend was religous at all.


When i asked why Jesus came for the first time at the point that he did, the answer was simple: "Because the time was right." After that i was able to go deeper in to the answer and i started to get the history of Jews and meaning of old testament. I remember this one thing that the journey of Jews and God
started about 6000 years ago. This is actually something i didnt know back then and got goosebumps when at some point it caught my eye that the calendar of jews start from the year 3761 eaa, that has been the year thought to be the first year of creation of the world.


When i asked when Christ is coming back it was the bible answer "He comes when he needs to come" A lot of Christians think that there is a date when Christ is coming back, but that is not true. In our time we have free will and our actions will point when the time is right. It could take 10 years or 1000 years.


And what do i think about contradictions in the Bible now? Nothing. In the speech of god, bible was mentioned multiple times that the bible is written by humans and has many many errors because in our time human is a human, not god.
The old testament made it possible for Jesus to come for the first time and that's what happened. The new testament made it possible for Jesus to come for the second time, and that's what is going to happen.


How do i know it was God communicating with me? It got pretty clear that it was God. I have never experienced anything like that before. I don't have and never have had any mental health problems, so i can't blame it on that.
Well, whatever it was, my belief in Christ has been sealed for life, and there is no way i could believe otherwise anymore. Apparently God has some use for me, because the faith was brought so clearly to me.


I can remember how i was crying from all that absolute love that i felt when God was communicating."


But yeah, i havent felt any experience that powerful after that, couple of times i have felt being loved when praying, but havent experienced God's communication since.

"Oh, your personal 'experience' proves your god? Tell me, what of all the Hindus who would swear that they had just as powerful an experience with Vishnu himself? Or the Muslims with Allah?"

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07-07-2015, 12:48 AM (This post was last modified: 07-07-2015 12:51 AM by Reltzik.)
RE: Personal experience argument
There are so many contradictory personal accounts of divine contact. Some personal accounts point to the god of Christianity, and others point to the Hindu gods, and others point to the Shinto spirits. Even within the same religion, these accounts differ; it would not, for example, be difficult to find two different Christians, one who claimed a personal feeling from God that gays were abominations to be hated and persecuted, and another who claimed to know that gays were people to be accepted and loved through the same manner of revelation.

By their contradictory nature, not all of these accounts can be true. They disagree. Some, or perhaps all, must be false.

Should we just believe them all, knowing they are false but knowingly erring on the side of credulity? Should we believe some and disbelieve others? If so, how do we decide which ones to disbelieve? What standard do we apply? How do we discern between multiple assertions to identify which, if any, is true? On what basis do I discount the personal experience of a Hindu, in order to validate your own? On what basis do you do it? Are you certain the Hindu has felt less strongly than you do?

Such powerful personal experiences and revelations have been used as a basis for murder, slavery, segregation, theft, war, and genocide. At what point do we decide that they are not completely reliable, however reliable they might feel? At what point do we vet them against other standards, and what should those standards be?

And people who have a strong feeling that there is no God... does their personal experience count as much as yours? Would you discount their personal experience because it disagrees with yours? Do you think discounting such personal experiences is a proper thing for you to do?
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07-07-2015, 01:06 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(06-07-2015 03:26 PM)Talviomena Wrote:  That's how it was for me. I never gave a crap about religion etc, since the country where we live in is Finland. (Between Sweden and Russia) and i have never faced any person who would admit being religous, in schools religion is teached not as a fact but almost as old myths, since the teachers, priests etc don't really seem to believe the stuff even themselves, i've only seen finnish religous people online where they become the subject of ridicule. Only really old people seem to be believers here, going to church and all.

So the religous questions also hit me pretty hard when i discovered all these personal experiences, NDE's and other arguments for religion. So i was also falling to become religous till i studied more and more on religion from all the factors,
everything seems to point to the opposite of god.

Only factors you can't really disprove are these personal experiences and NDE's.

That's why i wrote the story here to be discussed.

This is what i posted there but didnt get any answers on it, i guess it's impossible for them to change their mind after that kinda experience.

It's possible for mind to be changed. Can't do it externally though. Person kinda has to explore for themselves. Christianity has a lot of memes designed to make the person feel that they have thoroughly researched the answers (but using "church research" - so not proper methodology), and also a lot of memes to make people feel that others telling them that they are wrong have some kind of motive - a common theme among Christians is that the devil uses e.g. scientists to try and discredit Christianity, so it's very tricky to get a Christian to see things from the same perspective that rational thinkers do.

That's why for me being religious... is very hard to break free from. The person has to feel dissatisfied with the answers they find through Christianity themselves, they have to realise for themselves that the common ways for Christians to find things out (praying, personal revelation, reading the Bible, talking to more senior Christians) are not sufficient.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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07-07-2015, 07:16 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(06-07-2015 08:56 PM)Talviomena Wrote:  This guy also said that "God" told him that there is no date set on when Christ would be coming back,
i think i recall reading or hearing from other people that "God" has told them the date when the world is going to end and that Christ would be coming back.

Also "God" told him that bible is written by humans and because of that it's full of errors and some things that aren't true. And i totally recall reading and hearing about people who say that "God" talked to them and told them that the bible is 100% true.

I wonder how two people would settle a debate about the same God telling both of them different things.

There is no way to distinguish truth between two different god-based claims, that's why appeals to the supernatural invariably fail. There are only claims and neither one has evidence.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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07-07-2015, 08:43 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
I have asked repeatedly how to distinguish between a genuine personal experience and a delusion or hallucination. How can the person be sure the experience is from an external source and not a product of their own mind. The honest ones will say they can't but the majority just dodge and evade.
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07-07-2015, 09:27 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
I had a personal experience with some divine pulled pork and chopped brisket on the 4th.

Also, the story in the OP was obviously a bunch of bullshit strung together by an asshole who was never an atheist.
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07-07-2015, 09:44 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(06-07-2015 01:53 PM)Talviomena Wrote:  Hello, what would you answer to someone who argues a case for Christianity from a personal experience.
I have translated this story from another language, so there might be some typos.

Here's the story:

"I had been an atheist my whole life and thought religous people were just kinda dumb. My whole family were atheists and we didnt have any religous things at home etc. At some point of my life i decided "Okay, let's see in what do they actually believe". I listened to some religous radiostation while reading the bible, i didnt really get into it, but the topic was still sticking with me. One day i was thinking all the contradictions in the bible and still tried to pray from the bottom of my heart. After that something amazing happened.


While i was praying my whole body started to feel this weird power / presence and an amazing feeling of being loved. After that i started to hear this "talking" inside my head, but it wasnt really "talking". If telepathy was real, that's propably how i would explain it to feel. The voice told me it was an angel, but didnt point to any character etc, it was like the angel itself was the message from god, or god or something like that.But in that moment it was very logical. At first it was calming me down and saying multiple times "There is nothing to fear, everything is fine". Even saying it like that, it comes out a little clumsy, because the situation was very non-linear. Just afterwards i have been putting it into a linear order in my head. So i will try to explain it clearly and to dress it so human's could understand it better.


Well, right there it was letting me ask all kinda questions. Every question got answered in a second and i didnt need to ask any follow up questions because all the answers were so perfect. I asked when Jesus is coming back and why did he come in the first place. The most important answer for me was that one of my good friend had passed away couple years ago and i asked how is he doing and God answered "He has been saved, and everything is fine for him."
It was really amazing since i never thought my friend was religous at all.


When i asked why Jesus came for the first time at the point that he did, the answer was simple: "Because the time was right." After that i was able to go deeper in to the answer and i started to get the history of Jews and meaning of old testament. I remember this one thing that the journey of Jews and God
started about 6000 years ago. This is actually something i didnt know back then and got goosebumps when at some point it caught my eye that the calendar of jews start from the year 3761 eaa, that has been the year thought to be the first year of creation of the world.


When i asked when Christ is coming back it was the bible answer "He comes when he needs to come" A lot of Christians think that there is a date when Christ is coming back, but that is not true. In our time we have free will and our actions will point when the time is right. It could take 10 years or 1000 years.


And what do i think about contradictions in the Bible now? Nothing. In the speech of god, bible was mentioned multiple times that the bible is written by humans and has many many errors because in our time human is a human, not god.
The old testament made it possible for Jesus to come for the first time and that's what happened. The new testament made it possible for Jesus to come for the second time, and that's what is going to happen.


How do i know it was God communicating with me? It got pretty clear that it was God. I have never experienced anything like that before. I don't have and never have had any mental health problems, so i can't blame it on that.
Well, whatever it was, my belief in Christ has been sealed for life, and there is no way i could believe otherwise anymore. Apparently God has some use for me, because the faith was brought so clearly to me.


I can remember how i was crying from all that absolute love that i felt when God was communicating."


But yeah, i havent felt any experience that powerful after that, couple of times i have felt being loved when praying, but havent experienced God's communication since.

I think a personal experience/personal encounter with God MAY be valid. Just this weekend at a funeral, I spoke with a woman who claimed three such encounters with Jesus--we discussed it before she prayed with my dad and I to receive Jesus as Savior.

However, personal experience doesn't substitute for knowledge/fact checking/research/logic when checking Bible claims or the claims of any religion, even skeptics' claims.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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07-07-2015, 10:18 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(07-07-2015 09:44 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(06-07-2015 01:53 PM)Talviomena Wrote:  Hello, what would you answer to someone who argues a case for Christianity from a personal experience.
I have translated this story from another language, so there might be some typos.

Here's the story:

"I had been an atheist my whole life and thought religous people were just kinda dumb. My whole family were atheists and we didnt have any religous things at home etc. At some point of my life i decided "Okay, let's see in what do they actually believe". I listened to some religous radiostation while reading the bible, i didnt really get into it, but the topic was still sticking with me. One day i was thinking all the contradictions in the bible and still tried to pray from the bottom of my heart. After that something amazing happened.


While i was praying my whole body started to feel this weird power / presence and an amazing feeling of being loved. After that i started to hear this "talking" inside my head, but it wasnt really "talking". If telepathy was real, that's propably how i would explain it to feel. The voice told me it was an angel, but didnt point to any character etc, it was like the angel itself was the message from god, or god or something like that.But in that moment it was very logical. At first it was calming me down and saying multiple times "There is nothing to fear, everything is fine". Even saying it like that, it comes out a little clumsy, because the situation was very non-linear. Just afterwards i have been putting it into a linear order in my head. So i will try to explain it clearly and to dress it so human's could understand it better.


Well, right there it was letting me ask all kinda questions. Every question got answered in a second and i didnt need to ask any follow up questions because all the answers were so perfect. I asked when Jesus is coming back and why did he come in the first place. The most important answer for me was that one of my good friend had passed away couple years ago and i asked how is he doing and God answered "He has been saved, and everything is fine for him."
It was really amazing since i never thought my friend was religous at all.


When i asked why Jesus came for the first time at the point that he did, the answer was simple: "Because the time was right." After that i was able to go deeper in to the answer and i started to get the history of Jews and meaning of old testament. I remember this one thing that the journey of Jews and God
started about 6000 years ago. This is actually something i didnt know back then and got goosebumps when at some point it caught my eye that the calendar of jews start from the year 3761 eaa, that has been the year thought to be the first year of creation of the world.


When i asked when Christ is coming back it was the bible answer "He comes when he needs to come" A lot of Christians think that there is a date when Christ is coming back, but that is not true. In our time we have free will and our actions will point when the time is right. It could take 10 years or 1000 years.


And what do i think about contradictions in the Bible now? Nothing. In the speech of god, bible was mentioned multiple times that the bible is written by humans and has many many errors because in our time human is a human, not god.
The old testament made it possible for Jesus to come for the first time and that's what happened. The new testament made it possible for Jesus to come for the second time, and that's what is going to happen.


How do i know it was God communicating with me? It got pretty clear that it was God. I have never experienced anything like that before. I don't have and never have had any mental health problems, so i can't blame it on that.
Well, whatever it was, my belief in Christ has been sealed for life, and there is no way i could believe otherwise anymore. Apparently God has some use for me, because the faith was brought so clearly to me.


I can remember how i was crying from all that absolute love that i felt when God was communicating."


But yeah, i havent felt any experience that powerful after that, couple of times i have felt being loved when praying, but havent experienced God's communication since.

I think a personal experience/personal encounter with God MAY be valid. Just this weekend at a funeral, I spoke with a woman who claimed three such encounters with Jesus--we discussed it before she prayed with my dad and I to receive Jesus as Savior.

However, personal experience doesn't substitute for knowledge/fact checking/research/logic when checking Bible claims or the claims of any religion, even skeptics' claims.

Praying. LOL
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07-07-2015, 10:24 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(07-07-2015 09:44 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I think a personal experience/personal encounter with God MAY be valid. Just this weekend at a funeral, I spoke with a woman who claimed three such encounters with Jesus--we discussed it before she prayed with my dad and I to receive Jesus as Savior.

Yeah - well -- I was making pillow talk with Charlize Theron the other morning after some great sex- and we both decided that someone claiming to have talked with the creator of the known universe is quite a bit more unlikely than a person claiming to have talked to a real person that's well known.......

Ya think??

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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