Personal experience argument
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
21-07-2015, 10:35 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 10:29 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 10:18 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  You want it both ways......

You say this "god" person created everything -- then claim greed wasn't instilled by "god"????

Then who did??? His evil twin????


..
Our greed came from the acquisition of certain knowledge. Before that it was shown to us by the beings that were sent to give us knowledge of truth. These beings got it from knowledge. Where did that knowledge come from? That is an area that I am researching. It seems that this knowledge can be linked to darkness and void. The very root and desire of evil. Remember balance. It is only observable by me to be here on earth so I have a little trouble thinking that it is everywhere like good is. However, based on the very nature of evil, it is possible that it hides in plane sight through out the universe and could indeed be part of the balance that is needed for existence. Like I have said; still researching. It is easy to get lost with this type of thought so I will not attempt to study the origins of evil solely, rather in part as I search for truth.

"where it came from" doesn't seem to answer the point. If you think God created EVERYTHING it doesn't matter if it came to humanity 1st hand, 3rd hand, or though all these steps of "knowledge" seeping through the cracks of evil or any mental gymnastics you want to say. It still came from God. God created everything, it exists in the everything, therefore god created it. (in the very least, God allows it to exist)

You have no reason to fear evil. What you should fear is the thought that you think these thoughts are certainly true to you. You need to go back to where you were before if you really were questioning everything and reexamine if you actually do know anything.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-07-2015, 10:42 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 10:35 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 10:29 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Our greed came from the acquisition of certain knowledge. Before that it was shown to us by the beings that were sent to give us knowledge of truth. These beings got it from knowledge. Where did that knowledge come from? That is an area that I am researching. It seems that this knowledge can be linked to darkness and void. The very root and desire of evil. Remember balance. It is only observable by me to be here on earth so I have a little trouble thinking that it is everywhere like good is. However, based on the very nature of evil, it is possible that it hides in plane sight through out the universe and could indeed be part of the balance that is needed for existence. Like I have said; still researching. It is easy to get lost with this type of thought so I will not attempt to study the origins of evil solely, rather in part as I search for truth.

"where it came from" doesn't seem to answer the point. If you think God created EVERYTHING it doesn't matter if it came to humanity 1st hand, 3rd hand, or though all these steps of "knowledge" seeping through the cracks of evil or any mental gymnastics you want to say. It still came from God. God created everything, it exists in the everything, therefore god created it. (in the very least, God allows it to exist)

You have no reason to fear evil. What you should fear is the thought that you think these thoughts are certainly true to you. You need to go back to where you were before if you really were questioning everything and reexamine if you actually do know anything.
What don't you understand about free will and opportunity. We could have been blind in our direction like everything else, but God made us in his likeness giving us unparalleled opportunity. This opportunity can lead to our damnation, or to our ascension. Saying that God shouldn't allow us to suffer is like wishing you couldn't think. Can't have it both ways. Even without God.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-07-2015, 10:47 AM (This post was last modified: 21-07-2015 11:43 AM by ClydeLee.)
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 10:42 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 10:35 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  "where it came from" doesn't seem to answer the point. If you think God created EVERYTHING it doesn't matter if it came to humanity 1st hand, 3rd hand, or though all these steps of "knowledge" seeping through the cracks of evil or any mental gymnastics you want to say. It still came from God. God created everything, it exists in the everything, therefore god created it. (in the very least, God allows it to exist)

You have no reason to fear evil. What you should fear is the thought that you think these thoughts are certainly true to you. You need to go back to where you were before if you really were questioning everything and reexamine if you actually do know anything.
What don't you understand about free will and opportunity. We could have been blind in our direction like everything else, but God made us in his likeness giving us unparalleled opportunity. This opportunity can lead to our damnation, or to our ascension. Saying that God shouldn't allow us to suffer is like wishing you couldn't think. Can't have it both ways. Even without God.

These responses are often having no content regarding with what has been saying. Are you someone struggling with English on some degree? It's rather inconvenient to see arguments being defended that were never put up to begin with.

Why do you view that (being like everything else) as a negative? What is the "having both ways" you've not established you comprehend a point being made. Why is being blind like everything else something you think poorly of? Do you see yourself as superior?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-07-2015, 11:32 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 10:47 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 10:42 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  What don't you understand about free will and opportunity. We could have been blind in our direction like everything else, but God made us in his likeness giving us unparalleled opportunity. This opportunity can lead to our damnation, or to our ascension. Saying that God shouldn't allow us to suffer is like wishing you couldn't think. Can't have it both ways. Even without God.

These responses are often having no content regarding with what has been saying. Are you someone struggling with English on some degree? It's rather inconvenient to see arguments being defended that were never put up to begin with.

Why do you vieew that as a negative? What is the "having both ways" you've not established you comprehend a point being made. Why is being blind like everything else something you think poorly of? Do you see yourself as superior?
I don't view it as negative. If all were aligned with nature and existence there would be no pain or suffering for any creature. Definitely a good thing. We have dominion over earth and everything on it. In that we are special. Not me, us.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-07-2015, 11:36 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 10:33 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 10:22 AM)unfogged Wrote:  That doesn't respond to the point.

If they had no knowledge of good and evil and no free will then it is irrational to hold them responsible for their actions.
Bs the right path is shown to everything. They knew not to do what they did for it would kill them. Not kill them directly. This play on words was used to insinuate that the Lord of all creation had lied to them rooting motive with greed, and lust for power.

That doesn't respond to the point.

If they had no knowledge of good and evil and no free will then it is irrational (and immoral) to hold them responsible for their actions.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-07-2015, 11:39 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 11:36 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 10:33 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Bs the right path is shown to everything. They knew not to do what they did for it would kill them. Not kill them directly. This play on words was used to insinuate that the Lord of all creation had lied to them rooting motive with greed, and lust for power.

That doesn't respond to the point.

If they had no knowledge of good and evil and no free will then it is irrational (and immoral) to hold them responsible for their actions.
They knew that gaining that knowledge would be there damnation. That is all they should have needed to know. They were held accountable to a much lesser degree than the others who were responsable.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-07-2015, 12:24 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 11:39 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 11:36 AM)unfogged Wrote:  That doesn't respond to the point.

If they had no knowledge of good and evil and no free will then it is irrational (and immoral) to hold them responsible for their actions.
They knew that gaining that knowledge would be there damnation. That is all they should have needed to know. They were held accountable to a much lesser degree than the others who were responsable.

That doesn't respond to the point, it contradicts it. "there[sic] damnation" would mean nothing to people with no knowledge of good and evil and without free will they were powerless to do anything else anyway. They can't be justly held accountable to any degree of blame given your claim.

Please explain how sin or punishment is reasonable under your theology.

If they had no knowledge of good and evil and no free will then it is irrational (and immoral) to hold them responsible for their actions.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes unfogged's post
21-07-2015, 12:27 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
"I am very strong. I am the best thing that ever existed.

I love you very much and I want to have sex with you.

You say you don't want me to? That's fine, you have free will.

But look at all the evidence of how much I love you! I wrote a whole book just for you about it.

Yes, I say some pretty brutal stuff in there, but I'm past all that now.

Oh, and if you don't have sex with me I'm going to kill you."

(Religion in a nutshell... God is a rapist.)

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-07-2015, 01:22 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 11:32 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 10:47 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  These responses are often having no content regarding with what has been saying. Are you someone struggling with English on some degree? It's rather inconvenient to see arguments being defended that were never put up to begin with.

Why do you vieew that as a negative? What is the "having both ways" you've not established you comprehend a point being made. Why is being blind like everything else something you think poorly of? Do you see yourself as superior?
I don't view it as negative. If all were aligned with nature and existence there would be no pain or suffering for any creature. Definitely a good thing. We have dominion over earth and everything on it. In that we are special. Not me, us.

You seem to have a Disney-esque view of nature. It doesn't work that way.

You are ignorant of the real world - read a book.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-07-2015, 02:27 PM (This post was last modified: 21-07-2015 04:51 PM by jennybee.)
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 07:21 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(20-07-2015 10:06 AM)jennybee Wrote:  What prophecies/passages are you referring to?


The Prophecy ... Ezekiel 4:4-6



"Then God said to Ezekiel,

'Now lie on your left side for 390 days

to show Israel will be punished for 390 years

by captivity and doom.

Each day you lie there represents

a year of punishment ahead for Israel.

Afterwards, turn over and lay on your right side

for 40 days, to signify the years of Judah's punishment.

Each day will represent one year . . .'"

(Ezekiel 4:4-6)





This Is A Mathematical Bible Prophecy . . .



Although a little obscure (and sophisticated) this is one of the most fascinating prophecies found in the Bible.



Here, we find God telling Ezekiel that each day he (Ezekiel) lies on his side will represent one year of punishment for the nation Israel (Israel + Judah) because of their iniquities (sins) against God . . .



So, we have:



390 days Judgment against the 10 northern tribes 'Israel'

+ 40 days Judgment against the 2 southern tribes 'Judah'

= 430 years Judgment against the nation of Israel





The Fulfillment of the Prophetic Judgment Begins . . .



In 606 B.C. Israel (Judah) was taken into captivity by Babylon for exactly 70 years ...



430 years of judgment determined against nation Israel

- 70 years fulfilled during the Babylonian captivity

= 360 years remaining in judgment against the nation of Israel







The Mystery of 360 Years . . .



There should have been a total of 360 years left in judgment against Israel after their release from Babylonian captivity by the Persian general Cyrus, exactly 70 years after the Babylonian captivity began (just as the prophet Jeremiah had prophesied before the captivity) ... but where was the remaining 360 year judgment in Israel's history??!!





The 7X Factor of God's Judgment . . .



Bible scholars could not find any specific captivity or dispersion that fulfilled these 360 years left in the judgment until a close look in the book of Leviticus revealed a startling prophetic warning ...



"And after all this, if you do not obey Me,

then I (God) will punish you seven times more for your sins."

(Leviticus 26:18)



"Then, if you walk contrary to Me,

and are not willing to obey Me,

I (God) will bring on you seven times more plagues,

according to your sins."

(Leviticus 26:21)



"And after all this,

if you do not obey Me,

but walk contrary to Me,

then I (God) also will walk contrary to you in fury;

and I, even I will chastise you seven times for your sins.:

(Leviticus 26:27-28)



"I (God) will scatter you among the nations

and draw a sword after you;

your Land shall be desolate

and your cities waste."

(Leviticus 26:33)





The 7X factor of God's judgment against nation Israel. God warned Israel if they continued in their disobedience He would multiply their judgment by seven times! Remember, as noted throughout these prophetic studies, God says what He means and He means what He says!





Prophecy Fulfilled . . .



Now, let's apply the 7X factor to the remaining 360 years of judgment against nation Israel in this remarkable mathematical prophecy . . .



360 Remaining years of judgment

x 7 The prophetic '7X' factor

= 2,520 Years of judgment remained against nation Israel





God gave the Jews the most sophisticated calendar on Earth. It is both a Lunar and a Solar calendar. The Jewish calendar uses a 360 day lunar (and prophetic) year and then adds a 'Leap Month' on specific years to accurately coincide with the Solar cycle we use on our 'Julian' calendar ...



The Bible uses 360 day years for prophecies and expects us to add the appropriate 'leap months' on schedule. So, the easiest way to unravel this prophecy is to first convert this prophecy into days ...



2,520 years

x 360 days

= 907,200 days of judgment remained against nation Israel after the Babylonian captivity





Now, to convert the 907,200 days found in this prophecy into our 365.25 day solar (Julian) years (the .25 adjusts for leap years) . . .



907,200 days ÷ 365.25 days = 2,483.78 years of God's judgment remained





With this information, let's look at this remarkable prophecy again . . .



606 B.C Israel taken into Babylonian captivity

- 70 Years for 70 years

= 536 B.C. End of first 70 years of judgment

+ 2483 Years Now add the 2,483 years remaining in this judgment

+ 1 Year Add 1 year because there is no "0" B.C. or A.D.

= 1948 AD! End of judgment against nation Israel





Israel Back in Her Land as a Nation . . . in 1948!



Judah (Israel) was taken into captivity by the Babylonians in 606 B.C. They were released from captivity 70 years later by the Persians in 536 A.D., exactly as the prophet Jeremiah had prophesied, but their land was still under the control of the Persians. The Persians were later conquered by the Greeks, and the land of Israel remained under Greek control. The Greeks were then conquered by Rome and the land of Israel remained under Roman control. After failed rebellions against Rome around 70 A.D. and another around 100 years later, the Romans removed the Jews from the land of Israel, dispersed them around the world and then renamed the land 'Palestine' after the enemies of Israel. Then, after 2,500 years, and for the first time since the Babylonian captivity in 606 B.C., the world watched as Israel once again appeared on the world map as a sovereign nation, on May 14, 1948 ... exactly when the Bible said it would!





"Thus says the Lord God:

'Surely I will take the children of Israel

from among the nations,

wherever they have gone,

and will gather them from every side

and bring them into their own land."

(Ezekiel 37:21) ['Nations' (plural)...this is not their return from Babylon]





JERUSALEM ...



JERUSALEM ... What makes this mathematical Bible prophecy even MORE remarkable is if you take this same prophetic timeline which starts on the year of Babylon's conquest of the nation Israel and ends with Israel once again raised as a nation in 1948 ... now ... shift the exact same prophetic timeline to start on the year when Babylon returned and destroyed Jerusalem (19 years later) ... and (remarkably) this prophetic timeline's "end-point" now falls on the exact year Israel once again took sovereign control over Jerusalem in 1967 (after the "Six Day War.)

For a more precise study of this remarkable prophetic fulfillment of Ezekiel's prophecy in 1948 and 1967 read here ... Ezekiel's 430 day prophecy - Detailing the length of the "Desolations of Jerusalem" and the "Servitude of the Nation"- (Chuck Missler K-House Bible study)

Those are bible calculations from Grant Jeffrey and Chuck Missler. They are calculations they came up with. They are not based on Scripture as it does not say to add numbers together in the passage. If God wanted the numbers to be added together--He would have said add these numbers together. Or He would have said 430 days (or years based on the day-year principle). The passage in Ezekiel specifically makes the distinction between the two houses--the House of Israel and the House of Judah--they are two separate and distinct entities.

Additionally, it does not make sense to add those two numbers together. Here is a real world example for you: You have two children. Child A does something wrong and you punish them for 4 weeks. Child B does something wrong (although not as bad as Child A) and you punish them for 1 week. Then you tell them I am now going to add your punishments together. So Child A will be punished for 5 weeks and Child B will be punished for 5 weeks. It makes no sense.

Also, in terms of the start date of 606 BCE--as I have mentioned before--one could have also picked any number of "legitimate" start dates to make the math work. Here are a few examples:

597 BCE date of first deportation of Jews into exile

586 BCE Destruction of temple and deportation of more Jews

538 BCE Exile officially ends

[Image: mistele_clip_image002.gif]

As you can see, according to the Bible (Book of Jeremiah), the exile/captivity lasted 70 years. Ezekiel's prophecy did not come true. It would make more sense, then, to multiply 70 x 7 (7 taken from Leviticus) and not 360 x 7. But of course, we know why Jeffrey and Missler could not use 70 x 7--the math simply would not work.

All this should illustrate to you that Jeffrey and Missler played with dates and numbers to get a desired outcome.

Lastly, the Book of Ezekiel is divided by scholars into the following sections: (it's from Wikipedia, which I typically don't like citing--however it is accurate information, so I am cutting and pasting).

1. Inaugural vision (Ezekiel 1:1–3:27): God approaches Ezekiel as the divine warrior, riding in his battle chariot. The chariot is drawn by four living creatures, each having four faces (those of a man, a lion, an ox, and an eagle) and four wings. Beside each "living creature" is a "wheel within a wheel", with "tall and awesome" rims full of eyes all around. YHWH commissions Ezekiel as a prophet and as a "watchman" in Israel: "Son of man, I am sending you to the Israelites." (2:3)

2. Judgment on Jerusalem and Judah (Ezekiel 4:1–24:27) and on the nations (Ezekiel 25:1–32:32): God warns of the certain destruction of Jerusalem and of the devastation of the nations that have troubled his people: the Ammonites, Moabites, Edomites and Philistines, the Phoenician cities of Tyre and Sidon, and Egypt.

3. Building a new city (Ezekiel 33:1–48:35): The Jewish exile will come to an end, a new city and new Temple will be built, and the Israelites will be gathered and blessed as never before.

So as you can see, Ezekiel was never talking about 1948 Israel. He was talking about the goings on at the time of the Babylonian exile and the *immediate* rebuilding of a new Israel after the exile had ended---not years later in 1948.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like jennybee's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: