Personal experience argument
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21-07-2015, 05:21 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 11:32 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 10:47 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  These responses are often having no content regarding with what has been saying. Are you someone struggling with English on some degree? It's rather inconvenient to see arguments being defended that were never put up to begin with.

Why do you vieew that as a negative? What is the "having both ways" you've not established you comprehend a point being made. Why is being blind like everything else something you think poorly of? Do you see yourself as superior?

... We have dominion over earth and everything on it. In that we are special. Not me, us.

Quote:dominion
dəˈmɪnjən
noun
1.
sovereignty or control.

Buuuullshit. Humans have 'dominion' over jack shit.
For all our alleged 'sovereignty' and/or 'control', we can't even keep in control of ourselves properly, let alone anything else on this insignificant space-pebble we call home.

Do you seriously expect anybody who has even a remote level of awareness to buy that shit? The closest thing we have to 'control' over anything on this damn planet is our capacity to initiate, or at least mimic, an extinction event which is what we are doing now, by some scientists reckoning.

I don't know about you, but personally, I wouldn't rate 'destroying everything' as an indicator of having dominion, especially over a planet which can and will wreck our day by just existing.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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21-07-2015, 06:24 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 07:23 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  We should start with the creation itself...
Actually if your going to quote my question you should start by answering the fucking question.

(21-07-2015 07:23 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  How do you create someone with the ability to do good AND the ability to do evil and have them not do evil while maintaining their free will?
I don't create them with the ability to do evil because I don't go out of my way to invent evil which was the entire fucking point of the question you didn't actually answer. If your trying to say that the ability to do evil is required for free will to operate and your saying, which you have, that god has free will then god has the ability to do evil. Then we take it one step further and we have to look at all of gods (alleged) actions in the various "holy" books and compare them against the actions of a being capable of evil and when we do that we see that many of his actions are in fact evil.
The often parroted argument that gods FREQUENT calls to genocide, rape, and slavery must be good because he is good don't hold water if he is capable of evil as a much more likely explanation for those actions is that they are evil and god chose to be evil. If god does have free will and has no ability to chose evil then it means that there exists a system of free will that can and does operate devoid of the ability to do evil and not only does it exist, he intimately knows it exists and that it works.

So we are back at the original question you avoided: Is god unable to create a system of free will without evil (despite the fact he himself knows it exists) or did he choose not to create it even though he could have? Is he incompetent or malicious.


(21-07-2015 07:23 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Because if I only choose good or good, I'm perfect. I'm a god.
Even for you Q that's a pathetic attempt. Not being able to actively do evil does not mean you will always do the correct thing or that every decision has only one "good" choice.
Example: I see a homeless man on the street, now I can choose to give him $100 for food and clothing, I can choose to buy him dinner myself, I can choose to give him a job at my business, I can choose to let him stay with me in my own home and many other actions. All of those I think you would agree are choices that could be considered good. That does not mean they are the right choice to make because I could give him $100 for food and clothing and he could spend it on heroin without me knowing it. Does that mean my giving the homeless man $100 is not a good action even though it allowed him to feed a damaging addiction and was thus the wrong choice to make? No it does not. If I get him a job or let him stay with me and I find out that he is homeless because he's a violent schizophrenic does my good action stop being good because it was the wrong decision to make? No it does not.
The fact that I can't see the homeless man on the street and decide to set him on fire does not mean I don't have millions and millions of potentially good choices I can make freely.
Whats more is there a great deal of limitations on free will now. The fact I can't freely decide to go flying off into space under the power of my own arms does not mean I don't have free will in the exact same way that an inability to chose evil actions does not mean I don't have free will.

One last example and this one will be way more classic Wiskeydebates in nature: You Q could be utterly unable to take evil actions and still be a fucking idiot, they are not mutually exclusive. If you are a fucking idiot you can't be perfect now can you? Your assertion that the inability to do evil makes you perfect and thus a god is idiotic, childish, naive, poorly thought out, nonsensical, and not internally consistent.

And it would still be all those things if you were incapable of evil cause none of those things are evil, though they are wrong, and thus your not perfect.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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21-07-2015, 06:27 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 01:22 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 11:32 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I don't view it as negative. If all were aligned with nature and existence there would be no pain or suffering for any creature. Definitely a good thing. We have dominion over earth and everything on it. In that we are special. Not me, us.

You seem to have a Disney-esque view of nature. It doesn't work that way.

You are ignorant of the real world - read a book.
Was the most negative person I knew for the longest. Still have my doubts about Disney's motives. Faith completely changed me. Optimism is a wonderful tool.
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21-07-2015, 06:28 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 01:22 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 11:32 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I don't view it as negative. If all were aligned with nature and existence there would be no pain or suffering for any creature. Definitely a good thing. We have dominion over earth and everything on it. In that we are special. Not me, us.

You seem to have a Disney-esque view of nature. It doesn't work that way.

You are ignorant of the real world - read a book.
I read a lot the most grand tales to have ever been told. They are real.
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21-07-2015, 06:32 PM (This post was last modified: 22-07-2015 03:33 PM by WhiskeyDebates.)
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 07:21 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The Prophecy ... Ezekiel 4:4-6

Oh for fuck sake Q even for you that is too much. Much love to Jennybee for dismantling this bullshit in one hell of a great post so I don't have to waste my time with it.

I will add this though:

125
19
1007
2
4
32

All these numbers can be calculated to give a very exact date. I know what the one true date is (and there is only ONE correct answer) and what the proper calculation is. You however don't know either. Now solve it and tell me the date, and show your calculations.

Lets see if you can figure out the correct date when you don't already know the fucking conclusion you gullible nut.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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21-07-2015, 06:33 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 06:28 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 01:22 PM)Chas Wrote:  You seem to have a Disney-esque view of nature. It doesn't work that way.

You are ignorant of the real world - read a book.
I read a lot the most grand tales to have ever been told. They are real.

tale
tāl/Submit
noun
1.
a fictitious or true narrative or story, especially one that is imaginatively recounted.

Try reading some non-fiction for a change.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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21-07-2015, 06:34 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 02:27 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 07:21 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The Prophecy ... Ezekiel 4:4-6



"Then God said to Ezekiel,

'Now lie on your left side for 390 days

to show Israel will be punished for 390 years

by captivity and doom.

Each day you lie there represents

a year of punishment ahead for Israel.

Afterwards, turn over and lay on your right side

for 40 days, to signify the years of Judah's punishment.

Each day will represent one year . . .'"

(Ezekiel 4:4-6)





This Is A Mathematical Bible Prophecy . . .



Although a little obscure (and sophisticated) this is one of the most fascinating prophecies found in the Bible.



Here, we find God telling Ezekiel that each day he (Ezekiel) lies on his side will represent one year of punishment for the nation Israel (Israel + Judah) because of their iniquities (sins) against God . . .



So, we have:



390 days Judgment against the 10 northern tribes 'Israel'

+ 40 days Judgment against the 2 southern tribes 'Judah'

= 430 years Judgment against the nation of Israel





The Fulfillment of the Prophetic Judgment Begins . . .



In 606 B.C. Israel (Judah) was taken into captivity by Babylon for exactly 70 years ...



430 years of judgment determined against nation Israel

- 70 years fulfilled during the Babylonian captivity

= 360 years remaining in judgment against the nation of Israel







The Mystery of 360 Years . . .



There should have been a total of 360 years left in judgment against Israel after their release from Babylonian captivity by the Persian general Cyrus, exactly 70 years after the Babylonian captivity began (just as the prophet Jeremiah had prophesied before the captivity) ... but where was the remaining 360 year judgment in Israel's history??!!





The 7X Factor of God's Judgment . . .



Bible scholars could not find any specific captivity or dispersion that fulfilled these 360 years left in the judgment until a close look in the book of Leviticus revealed a startling prophetic warning ...



"And after all this, if you do not obey Me,

then I (God) will punish you seven times more for your sins."

(Leviticus 26:18)



"Then, if you walk contrary to Me,

and are not willing to obey Me,

I (God) will bring on you seven times more plagues,

according to your sins."

(Leviticus 26:21)



"And after all this,

if you do not obey Me,

but walk contrary to Me,

then I (God) also will walk contrary to you in fury;

and I, even I will chastise you seven times for your sins.:

(Leviticus 26:27-28)



"I (God) will scatter you among the nations

and draw a sword after you;

your Land shall be desolate

and your cities waste."

(Leviticus 26:33)





The 7X factor of God's judgment against nation Israel. God warned Israel if they continued in their disobedience He would multiply their judgment by seven times! Remember, as noted throughout these prophetic studies, God says what He means and He means what He says!





Prophecy Fulfilled . . .



Now, let's apply the 7X factor to the remaining 360 years of judgment against nation Israel in this remarkable mathematical prophecy . . .



360 Remaining years of judgment

x 7 The prophetic '7X' factor

= 2,520 Years of judgment remained against nation Israel





God gave the Jews the most sophisticated calendar on Earth. It is both a Lunar and a Solar calendar. The Jewish calendar uses a 360 day lunar (and prophetic) year and then adds a 'Leap Month' on specific years to accurately coincide with the Solar cycle we use on our 'Julian' calendar ...



The Bible uses 360 day years for prophecies and expects us to add the appropriate 'leap months' on schedule. So, the easiest way to unravel this prophecy is to first convert this prophecy into days ...



2,520 years

x 360 days

= 907,200 days of judgment remained against nation Israel after the Babylonian captivity





Now, to convert the 907,200 days found in this prophecy into our 365.25 day solar (Julian) years (the .25 adjusts for leap years) . . .



907,200 days ÷ 365.25 days = 2,483.78 years of God's judgment remained





With this information, let's look at this remarkable prophecy again . . .



606 B.C Israel taken into Babylonian captivity

- 70 Years for 70 years

= 536 B.C. End of first 70 years of judgment

+ 2483 Years Now add the 2,483 years remaining in this judgment

+ 1 Year Add 1 year because there is no "0" B.C. or A.D.

= 1948 AD! End of judgment against nation Israel





Israel Back in Her Land as a Nation . . . in 1948!



Judah (Israel) was taken into captivity by the Babylonians in 606 B.C. They were released from captivity 70 years later by the Persians in 536 A.D., exactly as the prophet Jeremiah had prophesied, but their land was still under the control of the Persians. The Persians were later conquered by the Greeks, and the land of Israel remained under Greek control. The Greeks were then conquered by Rome and the land of Israel remained under Roman control. After failed rebellions against Rome around 70 A.D. and another around 100 years later, the Romans removed the Jews from the land of Israel, dispersed them around the world and then renamed the land 'Palestine' after the enemies of Israel. Then, after 2,500 years, and for the first time since the Babylonian captivity in 606 B.C., the world watched as Israel once again appeared on the world map as a sovereign nation, on May 14, 1948 ... exactly when the Bible said it would!





"Thus says the Lord God:

'Surely I will take the children of Israel

from among the nations,

wherever they have gone,

and will gather them from every side

and bring them into their own land."

(Ezekiel 37:21) ['Nations' (plural)...this is not their return from Babylon]





JERUSALEM ...



JERUSALEM ... What makes this mathematical Bible prophecy even MORE remarkable is if you take this same prophetic timeline which starts on the year of Babylon's conquest of the nation Israel and ends with Israel once again raised as a nation in 1948 ... now ... shift the exact same prophetic timeline to start on the year when Babylon returned and destroyed Jerusalem (19 years later) ... and (remarkably) this prophetic timeline's "end-point" now falls on the exact year Israel once again took sovereign control over Jerusalem in 1967 (after the "Six Day War.)

For a more precise study of this remarkable prophetic fulfillment of Ezekiel's prophecy in 1948 and 1967 read here ... Ezekiel's 430 day prophecy - Detailing the length of the "Desolations of Jerusalem" and the "Servitude of the Nation"- (Chuck Missler K-House Bible study)

Those are bible calculations from Grant Jeffrey and Chuck Missler. They are calculations they came up with. They are not based on Scripture as it does not say to add numbers together in the passage. If God wanted the numbers to be added together--He would have said add these numbers together. Or He would have said 430 days (or years based on the day-year principle). The passage in Ezekiel specifically makes the distinction between the two houses--the House of Israel and the House of Judah--they are two separate and distinct entities.

Additionally, it does not make sense to add those two numbers together. Here is a real world example for you: You have two children. Child A does something wrong and you punish them for 4 weeks. Child B does something wrong (although not as bad as Child A) and you punish them for 1 week. Then you tell them I am now going to add your punishments together. So Child A will be punished for 5 weeks and Child B will be punished for 5 weeks. It makes no sense.

Also, in terms of the start date of 606 BCE--as I have mentioned before--one could have also picked any number of "legitimate" start dates to make the math work. Here are a few examples:

597 BCE date of first deportation of Jews into exile

586 BCE Destruction of temple and deportation of more Jews

538 BCE Exile officially ends

[Image: mistele_clip_image002.gif]

As you can see, according to the Bible (Book of Jeremiah), the exile/captivity lasted 70 years. Ezekiel's prophecy did not come true. It would make more sense, then, to multiply 70 x 7 (7 taken from Leviticus) and not 360 x 7. But of course, we know why Jeffrey and Missler could not use 70 x 7--the math simply would not work.

All this should illustrate to you that Jeffrey and Missler played with dates and numbers to get a desired outcome.

Lastly, the Book of Ezekiel is divided by scholars into the following sections: (it's from Wikipedia, which I typically don't like citing--however it is accurate information, so I am cutting and pasting).

1. Inaugural vision (Ezekiel 1:1–3:27): God approaches Ezekiel as the divine warrior, riding in his battle chariot. The chariot is drawn by four living creatures, each having four faces (those of a man, a lion, an ox, and an eagle) and four wings. Beside each "living creature" is a "wheel within a wheel", with "tall and awesome" rims full of eyes all around. YHWH commissions Ezekiel as a prophet and as a "watchman" in Israel: "Son of man, I am sending you to the Israelites." (2:3)

2. Judgment on Jerusalem and Judah (Ezekiel 4:1–24:27) and on the nations (Ezekiel 25:1–32:32): God warns of the certain destruction of Jerusalem and of the devastation of the nations that have troubled his people: the Ammonites, Moabites, Edomites and Philistines, the Phoenician cities of Tyre and Sidon, and Egypt.

3. Building a new city (Ezekiel 33:1–48:35): The Jewish exile will come to an end, a new city and new Temple will be built, and the Israelites will be gathered and blessed as never before.

So as you can see, Ezekiel was never talking about 1948 Israel. He was talking about the goings on at the time of the Babylonian exile and the *immediate* rebuilding of a new Israel after the exile had ended---not years later in 1948.
I never said the persecution of the Jews was over. Prejudice is everywhere.
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21-07-2015, 06:40 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
Free Thought,

This understanding and dominion is only through true Faith. It cannot even be recognized fully without Faith. I can actually set with wasps, spiders, vicious strang dogs and the like due to a simple vibe that I put off. All life communicates through pure emotion. You just have to be calm. Past that our tyranny over all other existence regardless of how fucked up it is is proof of our dominion in itself.
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21-07-2015, 06:43 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 09:01 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Already answered that. Thanks. And no we wouldn't have free will without chooses. Positive/ negative, good/ bad, yin/ yang, balance.

So god does not have free will, being all good and no evil? He has no ying to his yang according to you. So god is existence and existence requires balance, but god has no balance being 100% one sides but he is existence...which requires balance ....

Your shit don't agree with your shit son, maybe you should not make it up on the fly.

You are still arguing as if every situation only has two choices and not like...way more then that. See my response to Q above on his own dumb ass response.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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21-07-2015, 06:44 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 06:24 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 07:23 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  We should start with the creation itself...
Actually if your going to quote my question you should start by answering the fucking question.

(21-07-2015 07:23 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  How do you create someone with the ability to do good AND the ability to do evil and have them not do evil while maintaining their free will?
I don't create them with the ability to do evil because I don't go out of my way to invent evil which was the entire fucking point of the question you didn't actually answer. If your trying to say that the ability to do evil is required for free will to operate and your saying, which you have, that god has free will then god has the ability to do evil. Then we take it one step further and we have to look at all of gods (alleged) actions in the various "holy" books and compare them against the actions of a being capable of evil and when we do that we see that many of his actions are in fact evil.
The often parroted argument that gods FREQUENT calls to genocide, rape, and slavery must be good because he is good don't hold water if he is capable of evil as a much more likely explanation for those actions is that they are evil and god chose to be evil. If god does have free will and has no ability to chose evil then it means that there exists a system of free will that can and does operate devoid of the ability to do evil and not only does it exist, he intimately knows it exists and that it works.

So we are back at the original question you avoided: Is god unable to create a system of free will without evil (despite the fact he himself knows it exists) or did he choose not to create it even though he could have? Is he incompetent or malicious.


(21-07-2015 07:23 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Because if I only choose good or good, I'm perfect. I'm a god.
Even for you Q that's a pathetic attempt. Not being able to actively do evil does not mean you will always do the correct thing or that every decision has only one "good" choice.
Example: I see a homeless man on the street, now I can choose to give him $100 for food and clothing, I can choose to buy him dinner myself, I can choose to give him a job at my business, I can choose to let him stay with me in my own home and many other actions. All of those I think you would agree are choices that could be considered good. That does not mean they are the right choice to make because I could give him $100 for food and clothing and he could spend it on heroin without me knowing it. Does that mean my giving the homeless man $100 is not a good action even though it allowed him to feed a damaging addiction and was thus the wrong choice to make? No it does not. If I get him a job or let him stay with me and I find out that he is homeless because he's a violent schizophrenic does my good action stop being good because it was the wrong decision to make? No it does not.
The fact that I can't see the homeless man on the street and decide to set him on fire does not mean I don't have millions and millions of potentially good choices I can make freely.
Whats more is there a great deal of limitations on free will now. The fact I can't freely decide to go flying off into space under the power of my own arms does not mean I don't have free will in the exact same way that an inability to chose evil actions does not mean I don't have free will.

One last example and this one will be way more classic Wiskeydebates in nature: You Q could be utterly unable to take evil actions and still be a fucking idiot, they are not mutually exclusive. If you are a fucking idiot you can't be perfect now can you? Your assertion that the inability to do evil makes you perfect and thus a god is idiotic, childish, naive, poorly thought out, nonsensical, and not internally consistent.

And it would still be all those things if you were incapable of evil cause none of those things are evil, though they are wrong, and thus your not perfect.
It is indeed attainable it is only through hardship, trials, and selfless Faith that we may one day attain this most pure and all knowing form. Our current existence will be but a memory.
(21-07-2015 05:21 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 11:32 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  ... We have dominion over earth and everything on it. In that we are special. Not me, us.

Quote:dominion
dəˈmɪnjən
noun
1.
sovereignty or control.

Buuuullshit. Humans have 'dominion' over jack shit.
For all our alleged 'sovereignty' and/or 'control', we can't even keep in control of ourselves properly, let alone anything else on this insignificant space-pebble we call home.

Do you seriously expect anybody who has even a remote level of awareness to buy that shit? The closest thing we have to 'control' over anything on this damn planet is our capacity to initiate, or at least mimic, an extinction event which is what we are doing now, by some scientists reckoning.

I don't know about you, but personally, I wouldn't rate 'destroying everything' as an indicator of having dominion, especially over a planet which can and will wreck our day by just existing.
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