Personal experience argument
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22-07-2015, 04:51 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 06:40 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 05:21 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 11:32 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  ... We have dominion over earth and everything on it. In that we are special. Not me, us.

Quote:dominion
dəˈmɪnjən
noun
1.
sovereignty or control.

Buuuullshit. Humans have 'dominion' over jack shit.
For all our alleged 'sovereignty' and/or 'control', we can't even keep in control of ourselves properly, let alone anything else on this insignificant space-pebble we call home.

Do you seriously expect anybody who has even a remote level of awareness to buy that shit? The closest thing we have to 'control' over anything on this damn planet is our capacity to initiate, or at least mimic, an extinction event which is what we are doing now, by some scientists reckoning.

I don't know about you, but personally, I wouldn't rate 'destroying everything' as an indicator of having dominion, especially over a planet which can and will wreck our day by just existing.

Free Thought,

This understanding and dominion is only through true Faith. It cannot even be recognized fully without Faith. I can actually set with wasps, spiders, vicious strang dogs and the like due to a simple vibe that I put off. You just have to be calm.

Oh boy, we're just into the opening and we're already beating the ever-popular 'No true X' and 'Exclusivity' horses, and of course, you conveniently can't demonstrate the non-evident dominion, or the veracity of your faith-claim... Because of reasons, I'm guessing? While it is nice to see burgeoning new groups rise up to monopoly status in an industry allegedly already monopolized, your particular exclusivity deal with truth isn't worth half a Zimbabwe dollar if your contract requires people to buy into you before they see the product in all its truthy glory; it just not a way to earn consumer trust. Not to mention the impossible barrier to entry it sets first...

(21-07-2015 06:40 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I can actually set with wasps, spiders, vicious strang dogs and the like due to a simple vibe that I put off. You just have to be calm.

I call bull on your example of your 'ability' to 'set' with animals like wasps et al. For one, personally I am sceptical of anything or anyone who claims 'vibes' for anything other than unsubstantiated tosh.... Or a stupid abbreviation of 'vibrations', then I'd wonder why person X chose to use an abbreviation with baggage rather than say the whole word... Unless of course you can prove these 'vibes' of yours, and by all means do; the more we understand about everything we can study, the better.
Anyway, another reason call bull is that the creatures you mention aren't necessarily going to attack humans without provocation; people who are calm 'n shit may be less likely to be attacked, but it's not because of their feels so much as a consequence of the body's self-preservation mechanisms; when a person gets stressed as most would in the face of things that may hurt them, self-preservation kicks in, leading to all sorts of cues which can be read by animals as aggression, causing their own response; increase hormone output can trigger responses from certain pheromone-using animals, same with body posture, sound, erratic or sudden movement and so on, can all unintentionally act as aggression-triggering stimuli on a wide number of animals, including other humans.

(21-07-2015 06:40 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  ...All life communicates through pure emotion...

And no, not all life communicate through 'pure emotion'. I'd love to know where you got that nonsense (See: [Citation Needed]). Are you really going to try to tell me that unicellular organisms (among other things) have feelings, that they communicate with no less, despite the total absence of the mechanisms known to cause them?

(21-07-2015 06:40 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Past that our tyranny over all other existence regardless of how fucked up it is is proof of our dominion in itself.

No, it isn't. I posted the applicable definition of 'dominion' and nowhere in it was the suggestion that 'fucking shit up' is a part of it. To have dominion over something is to control it: humanity definitionally does not have dominion over the Earth as you have stated before, nor really anything that exists on it, let alone 'all other existence'. Our capability to bring death on a scale mirroring that of an extinction event is a testament to our lack of control; we can't even keep ourselves and our creations in check, let alone anything else in nature, and to think we can is nought more than the work of an over-active imagination with faaar too fanciful a nature.

Oh, and here's a pro-tip for you: "Faith" is not a proper noun, you only capitalise it when it is at the start of a sentence.

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22-07-2015, 10:38 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 02:27 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 07:21 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The Prophecy ... Ezekiel 4:4-6



"Then God said to Ezekiel,

'Now lie on your left side for 390 days

to show Israel will be punished for 390 years

by captivity and doom.

Each day you lie there represents

a year of punishment ahead for Israel.

Afterwards, turn over and lay on your right side

for 40 days, to signify the years of Judah's punishment.

Each day will represent one year . . .'"

(Ezekiel 4:4-6)





This Is A Mathematical Bible Prophecy . . .



Although a little obscure (and sophisticated) this is one of the most fascinating prophecies found in the Bible.



Here, we find God telling Ezekiel that each day he (Ezekiel) lies on his side will represent one year of punishment for the nation Israel (Israel + Judah) because of their iniquities (sins) against God . . .



So, we have:



390 days Judgment against the 10 northern tribes 'Israel'

+ 40 days Judgment against the 2 southern tribes 'Judah'

= 430 years Judgment against the nation of Israel





The Fulfillment of the Prophetic Judgment Begins . . .



In 606 B.C. Israel (Judah) was taken into captivity by Babylon for exactly 70 years ...



430 years of judgment determined against nation Israel

- 70 years fulfilled during the Babylonian captivity

= 360 years remaining in judgment against the nation of Israel







The Mystery of 360 Years . . .



There should have been a total of 360 years left in judgment against Israel after their release from Babylonian captivity by the Persian general Cyrus, exactly 70 years after the Babylonian captivity began (just as the prophet Jeremiah had prophesied before the captivity) ... but where was the remaining 360 year judgment in Israel's history??!!





The 7X Factor of God's Judgment . . .



Bible scholars could not find any specific captivity or dispersion that fulfilled these 360 years left in the judgment until a close look in the book of Leviticus revealed a startling prophetic warning ...



"And after all this, if you do not obey Me,

then I (God) will punish you seven times more for your sins."

(Leviticus 26:18)



"Then, if you walk contrary to Me,

and are not willing to obey Me,

I (God) will bring on you seven times more plagues,

according to your sins."

(Leviticus 26:21)



"And after all this,

if you do not obey Me,

but walk contrary to Me,

then I (God) also will walk contrary to you in fury;

and I, even I will chastise you seven times for your sins.:

(Leviticus 26:27-28)



"I (God) will scatter you among the nations

and draw a sword after you;

your Land shall be desolate

and your cities waste."

(Leviticus 26:33)





The 7X factor of God's judgment against nation Israel. God warned Israel if they continued in their disobedience He would multiply their judgment by seven times! Remember, as noted throughout these prophetic studies, God says what He means and He means what He says!





Prophecy Fulfilled . . .



Now, let's apply the 7X factor to the remaining 360 years of judgment against nation Israel in this remarkable mathematical prophecy . . .



360 Remaining years of judgment

x 7 The prophetic '7X' factor

= 2,520 Years of judgment remained against nation Israel





God gave the Jews the most sophisticated calendar on Earth. It is both a Lunar and a Solar calendar. The Jewish calendar uses a 360 day lunar (and prophetic) year and then adds a 'Leap Month' on specific years to accurately coincide with the Solar cycle we use on our 'Julian' calendar ...



The Bible uses 360 day years for prophecies and expects us to add the appropriate 'leap months' on schedule. So, the easiest way to unravel this prophecy is to first convert this prophecy into days ...



2,520 years

x 360 days

= 907,200 days of judgment remained against nation Israel after the Babylonian captivity





Now, to convert the 907,200 days found in this prophecy into our 365.25 day solar (Julian) years (the .25 adjusts for leap years) . . .



907,200 days ÷ 365.25 days = 2,483.78 years of God's judgment remained





With this information, let's look at this remarkable prophecy again . . .



606 B.C Israel taken into Babylonian captivity

- 70 Years for 70 years

= 536 B.C. End of first 70 years of judgment

+ 2483 Years Now add the 2,483 years remaining in this judgment

+ 1 Year Add 1 year because there is no "0" B.C. or A.D.

= 1948 AD! End of judgment against nation Israel





Israel Back in Her Land as a Nation . . . in 1948!



Judah (Israel) was taken into captivity by the Babylonians in 606 B.C. They were released from captivity 70 years later by the Persians in 536 A.D., exactly as the prophet Jeremiah had prophesied, but their land was still under the control of the Persians. The Persians were later conquered by the Greeks, and the land of Israel remained under Greek control. The Greeks were then conquered by Rome and the land of Israel remained under Roman control. After failed rebellions against Rome around 70 A.D. and another around 100 years later, the Romans removed the Jews from the land of Israel, dispersed them around the world and then renamed the land 'Palestine' after the enemies of Israel. Then, after 2,500 years, and for the first time since the Babylonian captivity in 606 B.C., the world watched as Israel once again appeared on the world map as a sovereign nation, on May 14, 1948 ... exactly when the Bible said it would!





"Thus says the Lord God:

'Surely I will take the children of Israel

from among the nations,

wherever they have gone,

and will gather them from every side

and bring them into their own land."

(Ezekiel 37:21) ['Nations' (plural)...this is not their return from Babylon]





JERUSALEM ...



JERUSALEM ... What makes this mathematical Bible prophecy even MORE remarkable is if you take this same prophetic timeline which starts on the year of Babylon's conquest of the nation Israel and ends with Israel once again raised as a nation in 1948 ... now ... shift the exact same prophetic timeline to start on the year when Babylon returned and destroyed Jerusalem (19 years later) ... and (remarkably) this prophetic timeline's "end-point" now falls on the exact year Israel once again took sovereign control over Jerusalem in 1967 (after the "Six Day War.)

For a more precise study of this remarkable prophetic fulfillment of Ezekiel's prophecy in 1948 and 1967 read here ... Ezekiel's 430 day prophecy - Detailing the length of the "Desolations of Jerusalem" and the "Servitude of the Nation"- (Chuck Missler K-House Bible study)

Those are bible calculations from Grant Jeffrey and Chuck Missler. They are calculations they came up with. They are not based on Scripture as it does not say to add numbers together in the passage. If God wanted the numbers to be added together--He would have said add these numbers together. Or He would have said 430 days (or years based on the day-year principle). The passage in Ezekiel specifically makes the distinction between the two houses--the House of Israel and the House of Judah--they are two separate and distinct entities.

Additionally, it does not make sense to add those two numbers together. Here is a real world example for you: You have two children. Child A does something wrong and you punish them for 4 weeks. Child B does something wrong (although not as bad as Child A) and you punish them for 1 week. Then you tell them I am now going to add your punishments together. So Child A will be punished for 5 weeks and Child B will be punished for 5 weeks. It makes no sense.

Also, in terms of the start date of 606 BCE--as I have mentioned before--one could have also picked any number of "legitimate" start dates to make the math work. Here are a few examples:

597 BCE date of first deportation of Jews into exile

586 BCE Destruction of temple and deportation of more Jews

538 BCE Exile officially ends

[Image: mistele_clip_image002.gif]

As you can see, according to the Bible (Book of Jeremiah), the exile/captivity lasted 70 years. Ezekiel's prophecy did not come true. It would make more sense, then, to multiply 70 x 7 (7 taken from Leviticus) and not 360 x 7. But of course, we know why Jeffrey and Missler could not use 70 x 7--the math simply would not work.

All this should illustrate to you that Jeffrey and Missler played with dates and numbers to get a desired outcome.

Lastly, the Book of Ezekiel is divided by scholars into the following sections: (it's from Wikipedia, which I typically don't like citing--however it is accurate information, so I am cutting and pasting).

1. Inaugural vision (Ezekiel 1:1–3:27): God approaches Ezekiel as the divine warrior, riding in his battle chariot. The chariot is drawn by four living creatures, each having four faces (those of a man, a lion, an ox, and an eagle) and four wings. Beside each "living creature" is a "wheel within a wheel", with "tall and awesome" rims full of eyes all around. YHWH commissions Ezekiel as a prophet and as a "watchman" in Israel: "Son of man, I am sending you to the Israelites." (2:3)

2. Judgment on Jerusalem and Judah (Ezekiel 4:1–24:27) and on the nations (Ezekiel 25:1–32:32): God warns of the certain destruction of Jerusalem and of the devastation of the nations that have troubled his people: the Ammonites, Moabites, Edomites and Philistines, the Phoenician cities of Tyre and Sidon, and Egypt.

3. Building a new city (Ezekiel 33:1–48:35): The Jewish exile will come to an end, a new city and new Temple will be built, and the Israelites will be gathered and blessed as never before.

So as you can see, Ezekiel was never talking about 1948 Israel. He was talking about the goings on at the time of the Babylonian exile and the *immediate* rebuilding of a new Israel after the exile had ended---not years later in 1948.

You have a mistake or two there, if I may say so.

The 70 years was taken away from the 430, leaving 360 x 7 = (moved to Gentile calendar) 1948. It's 360 x 7, not 430 times 7, not 70 times 7.

We're not talking about instruction sets and how you'd like them modified. We're talking about a being existing beyond time (in our relative time/space, He is outside it) and predicting future events.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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22-07-2015, 02:49 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(22-07-2015 10:38 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 02:27 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Those are bible calculations from Grant Jeffrey and Chuck Missler. They are calculations they came up with. They are not based on Scripture as it does not say to add numbers together in the passage. If God wanted the numbers to be added together--He would have said add these numbers together. Or He would have said 430 days (or years based on the day-year principle). The passage in Ezekiel specifically makes the distinction between the two houses--the House of Israel and the House of Judah--they are two separate and distinct entities.

Additionally, it does not make sense to add those two numbers together. Here is a real world example for you: You have two children. Child A does something wrong and you punish them for 4 weeks. Child B does something wrong (although not as bad as Child A) and you punish them for 1 week. Then you tell them I am now going to add your punishments together. So Child A will be punished for 5 weeks and Child B will be punished for 5 weeks. It makes no sense.

Also, in terms of the start date of 606 BCE--as I have mentioned before--one could have also picked any number of "legitimate" start dates to make the math work. Here are a few examples:

597 BCE date of first deportation of Jews into exile

586 BCE Destruction of temple and deportation of more Jews

538 BCE Exile officially ends

[Image: mistele_clip_image002.gif]

As you can see, according to the Bible (Book of Jeremiah), the exile/captivity lasted 70 years. Ezekiel's prophecy did not come true. It would make more sense, then, to multiply 70 x 7 (7 taken from Leviticus) and not 360 x 7. But of course, we know why Jeffrey and Missler could not use 70 x 7--the math simply would not work.

All this should illustrate to you that Jeffrey and Missler played with dates and numbers to get a desired outcome.

Lastly, the Book of Ezekiel is divided by scholars into the following sections: (it's from Wikipedia, which I typically don't like citing--however it is accurate information, so I am cutting and pasting).

1. Inaugural vision (Ezekiel 1:1–3:27): God approaches Ezekiel as the divine warrior, riding in his battle chariot. The chariot is drawn by four living creatures, each having four faces (those of a man, a lion, an ox, and an eagle) and four wings. Beside each "living creature" is a "wheel within a wheel", with "tall and awesome" rims full of eyes all around. YHWH commissions Ezekiel as a prophet and as a "watchman" in Israel: "Son of man, I am sending you to the Israelites." (2:3)

2. Judgment on Jerusalem and Judah (Ezekiel 4:1–24:27) and on the nations (Ezekiel 25:1–32:32): God warns of the certain destruction of Jerusalem and of the devastation of the nations that have troubled his people: the Ammonites, Moabites, Edomites and Philistines, the Phoenician cities of Tyre and Sidon, and Egypt.

3. Building a new city (Ezekiel 33:1–48:35): The Jewish exile will come to an end, a new city and new Temple will be built, and the Israelites will be gathered and blessed as never before.

So as you can see, Ezekiel was never talking about 1948 Israel. He was talking about the goings on at the time of the Babylonian exile and the *immediate* rebuilding of a new Israel after the exile had ended---not years later in 1948.

You have a mistake or two there, if I may say so.

The 70 years was taken away from the 430, leaving 360 x 7 = (moved to Gentile calendar) 1948. It's 360 x 7, not 430 times 7, not 70 times 7.

We're not talking about instruction sets and how you'd like them modified. We're talking about a being existing beyond time (in our relative time/space, He is outside it) and predicting future events.

Sure you can say so Big Grin But, no, I did not make a mistake Tongue

The 430 is from 390 + 40 (taken from Ezekiel 4). Ezekiel is told to lie on one side of his body for 390 days (House of Israel) and 40 days on the other side of his body (House of Judah).

My point is that it makes no sense from the get-go to add these two numbers together. In Ezekiel, the 390 and 40 are referring to two different houses (House of Israel/House of Judah). They are not supposed to be added together. God, in fact, is so adamant that these are separate entities, He tells Ezekiel the following:

Ezekiel 4:8-- "See, I bind you with ropes so that you cannot turn from one side to the other until you have completed the days of your siege."

As per the above passage, God makes it clear that the amount of punishment for each house is separate and distinct. He even binds Ezekiel with ropes to keep him from turning over onto a different side. Why go to the trouble of doing this if the houses were supposed to be added together?

Missler and Jeffrey added 390 and 40 together--despite the fact that it is not justified by Scripture to do so. After combining 390 + 40 = 430, Missler and Jeffrey THEN subtract 70 (from the Babylon exile) to come out with 360. Then, they take 360 x 7 (from Leviticus). This is clear passage jumping and playing with numbers.

The reason I said it should be 70 x 7 from the outset (if we were going to do math calculations at all) is because the Bible says the exile lasted 70 years. Ezekiel's prophecy of 390/40 never came true. Additionally, Ezekiel never says in the passage, "Oh by the way, this 390/40 business is for the year 1948." Why doesn't he say that? Because he was talking about the Babylonian exile, which makes sense if you read the entire book of Ezekiel in its historical context.

The Bible is a book that is chock-full of dates and numbers. Jeffrey and Missler are not prophets--they are just humans who played with numbers and passages to get a desired outcome. There is absolutely no Scriptural justification for any of their calculations. You and I could pick a random date and then go through the Bible and find numbers and passages to justify our calculations if we really wanted to. It's really not that difficult. You can see how easy it is to do this just by doing a google search on Bible codes/calculations--there are all kinds of things people have "found" in the Bible.
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22-07-2015, 03:28 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 11:03 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  You used Truthiness in a sentence!

TWO beers!!
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You are goddamn right I did! Big Grin

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22-07-2015, 03:47 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 06:44 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 06:24 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Actually if your going to quote my question you should start by answering the fucking question.

I don't create them with the ability to do evil because I don't go out of my way to invent evil which was the entire fucking point of the question you didn't actually answer. If your trying to say that the ability to do evil is required for free will to operate and your saying, which you have, that god has free will then god has the ability to do evil. Then we take it one step further and we have to look at all of gods (alleged) actions in the various "holy" books and compare them against the actions of a being capable of evil and when we do that we see that many of his actions are in fact evil.
The often parroted argument that gods FREQUENT calls to genocide, rape, and slavery must be good because he is good don't hold water if he is capable of evil as a much more likely explanation for those actions is that they are evil and god chose to be evil. If god does have free will and has no ability to chose evil then it means that there exists a system of free will that can and does operate devoid of the ability to do evil and not only does it exist, he intimately knows it exists and that it works.

So we are back at the original question you avoided: Is god unable to create a system of free will without evil (despite the fact he himself knows it exists) or did he choose not to create it even though he could have? Is he incompetent or malicious.


Even for you Q that's a pathetic attempt. Not being able to actively do evil does not mean you will always do the correct thing or that every decision has only one "good" choice.
Example: I see a homeless man on the street, now I can choose to give him $100 for food and clothing, I can choose to buy him dinner myself, I can choose to give him a job at my business, I can choose to let him stay with me in my own home and many other actions. All of those I think you would agree are choices that could be considered good. That does not mean they are the right choice to make because I could give him $100 for food and clothing and he could spend it on heroin without me knowing it. Does that mean my giving the homeless man $100 is not a good action even though it allowed him to feed a damaging addiction and was thus the wrong choice to make? No it does not. If I get him a job or let him stay with me and I find out that he is homeless because he's a violent schizophrenic does my good action stop being good because it was the wrong decision to make? No it does not.
The fact that I can't see the homeless man on the street and decide to set him on fire does not mean I don't have millions and millions of potentially good choices I can make freely.
Whats more is there a great deal of limitations on free will now. The fact I can't freely decide to go flying off into space under the power of my own arms does not mean I don't have free will in the exact same way that an inability to chose evil actions does not mean I don't have free will.

One last example and this one will be way more classic Wiskeydebates in nature: You Q could be utterly unable to take evil actions and still be a fucking idiot, they are not mutually exclusive. If you are a fucking idiot you can't be perfect now can you? Your assertion that the inability to do evil makes you perfect and thus a god is idiotic, childish, naive, poorly thought out, nonsensical, and not internally consistent.

And it would still be all those things if you were incapable of evil cause none of those things are evil, though they are wrong, and thus your not perfect.
It is indeed attainable it is only through hardship, trials, and selfless Faith that we may one day attain this most pure and all knowing form.
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That response has nothing in common with what you are quoting. Is what attainable? Did I say something was unobtainable? How does that address, response or in any fucking way relate to even one, ONE, of the questions or statments in that post? How is that a response to the example that free will can EASILY exist without evil? What does that have to do with the posit that given it exists god either chose to invest evil in a malicious way, or was to much of a bumblefuck inept creator that he invented evil through sheer incompetence.
I say god is an asshole or stupid and your response is to say "Yes, and we can all be like that if we try hard"? Your fucking sentence makes no sense given the context of what it was trying to addressing. Would you PLEASE put some fucking thought into your responses before you send them?

(21-07-2015 06:44 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Our current existence will be but a memory.
Yes, a memory for other people who are still alive because you will stop existing when you die, now fuck off with your fairytale.

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22-07-2015, 03:54 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(22-07-2015 10:38 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You have a mistake or two there, if I may say so.

The 70 years was taken away from the 430, leaving 360 x 7 = (moved to Gentile calendar) 1948. It's 360 x 7, not 430 times 7, not 70 times 7.

We're not talking about instruction sets and how you'd like them modified. We're talking about a being existing beyond time (in our relative time/space, He is outside it) and predicting future events in a needlessly convoluted way which I admit is weird given how explicit and clear he is on the whole baby murderers being blessed thing.
Tongue
Finished that sentence for ya there Q.

So did you get the date figured out yet? Drinking Beverage

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22-07-2015, 03:58 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
Whiskey Debates,
free will cannot exist without evil. Good cannot exist without bad. Light cannot exist without dark. Evil can be made infinitely small , however.

As far as the whole memory thing; it is metaphorical. It refers to a time/space where there is no hospitable Earth for us.
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22-07-2015, 04:04 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(21-07-2015 09:36 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 07:38 PM)Anjele Wrote:  As much as I enjoy reading the responses to poopy and godex...I think my ignore list has to be appended. They can join the likes of diddles and dim.

Poopy's threats, anger, ignorance, and general assholery make further attention not worth the time.

You just can't fix stupid.

Funny enough I actually just did block pops, I told him to stop sending his garbage to my inbox and he didn't so on the list he went to keep him from vomiting his bullshit in my inbox.
He joins Call_of_the_Wild and Wicked Clown.

Truly he strides amongst the giants! of stupidity

Many of the dickweeds of this sort have a tendency to ignore obviously female posters...which speaks volumes about where their tiny little...uh...brains are.

I haven't been graced with PMs from any of them either...bummer...I am hurt, wounded even. Dodgy I haven't had a PM from a shithead since Clownboy finally got the heave-ho.

These guys will be fine in my little group of ignored posters - the list is short - a pedophile and some ignorant assholes. Quite the elite group.

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22-07-2015, 06:04 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
Still waiting for your explanation pops...


(21-07-2015 09:12 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  No. Adam and Eve where without sin which is to say they were without knowledge of good and evil, which is to say that they had no free will prior to attaining knowledge, some of which they weren't to attain at all, hence sin and punishment.

If they had no knowledge of good and evil and no free will then it is irrational to hold them responsible for their actions. With no knowledge of good and evil they would not understand that an action could be wrong and without free will they were powerless to do anything else anyway.

Please explain how sin or punishment is reasonable under your theology or admit that you do not know what you are talking about.

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22-07-2015, 07:16 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
Unfogged,
They had knowledge of good as all creation does through its direct link with existence. The Lord actually made himself apparent to them exceedingly so. They knew they would be doomed if they partook the evil knowledge. Lack of free will should have been all they needed with Faith in the Lord or existence as they saw it before them in all its wonderous beauty. Evil needed an in. Evil being wholly deceitful indeed found its way. Through deceit and manipulation of God's work Evil was able to creep in and make every little thing be a test. An opportunity to go up or down. Indeed our free will could be seen as a blessing and a curse. Due to Evil, there must be some small balance.
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