Personal experience argument
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07-07-2015, 06:48 PM (This post was last modified: 08-07-2015 02:38 AM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Personal experience argument
(06-07-2015 02:02 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I never argue with a personal experience or revelation.

I simply explain why it might be why they believe it's never enough to convince me to believe on their word alone.

If they press I'll add that it's human nature to embellish facts or read more into things than there is.

Funny they always end up getting defensive. It's almost as though they are lying and desperate to convince me they're not.

Couldn't have said it any better Thumbsup

arguing against personal experience is usually a waste of time, nothing you say will convince them that they didn't experience the glory of god, or witness a miracle. Rolleyes

I have a long winded analogy that I usually posit with great success of making my point but too tired, and too sweaty to care enough tonight to write it up off memory. Military and have duty today, already logged in 9 miles on my fitbit running around, up and down, back and forth......joyous, did I mention it is in the mid 90s here in Virginia and muggy as hell? Weeping

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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08-07-2015, 02:04 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(07-07-2015 06:48 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  joyous, did I mention is it in the 90s in Virginia...

Oh that must be awful. Hanson's Mmmbop blasting on the radio and Sabrina the Teenage Witch on the TV
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08-07-2015, 02:15 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(07-07-2015 02:07 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  
(07-07-2015 09:44 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I think a personal experience/personal encounter with God MAY be valid. Just this weekend at a funeral, I spoke with a woman who claimed three such encounters with Jesus--we discussed it before she prayed with my dad and I to receive Jesus as Savior.

However, personal experience doesn't substitute for knowledge/fact checking/research/logic when checking Bible claims or the claims of any religion, even skeptics' claims.


To add to Stevil's post above, I have a good friend that was pretty down and out. He was living on the street, an alcoholic, and doing petty crimes.

One day, he walked into a Hindu temple in LA and claims to have had a personal experience with the Hindu god. His description is pretty much identical to the type of experience that Christians claim they have with their god.

He quit alcohol that day, and preceded to change his life around. 10 years later, he has a successful small business and a nice family. He is still a Hindu and is adamant that his life was changed by the Hindu god.

Is his personal experience valid? Why or why not?


The fact that he imagined something does not make it true. Regardless of the outcome.

I am happy your friend is doing better.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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08-07-2015, 02:20 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(07-07-2015 09:44 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  However, personal experience doesn't substitute for knowledge/fact checking/research/logic when checking Bible claims or the claims of any religion, even skeptics' claims.

.......

dammitnowIagreewithsomethingQsaidkillmenow...
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08-07-2015, 02:27 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(08-07-2015 02:20 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(07-07-2015 09:44 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  However, personal experience doesn't substitute for knowledge/fact checking/research/logic when checking Bible claims or the claims of any religion, even skeptics' claims.

.......

dammitnowIagreewithsomethingQsaidkillmenow...


I know, right? Smartass

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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08-07-2015, 05:10 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(08-07-2015 02:20 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(07-07-2015 09:44 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  However, personal experience doesn't substitute for knowledge/fact checking/research/logic when checking Bible claims or the claims of any religion, even skeptics' claims.

.......

dammitnowIagreewithsomethingQsaidkillmenow...

Maybe Q was drunk, he gets rational and less Jesusy when he's not sober.

Hell, I'll get him an IV of vodka if it had that effect on him.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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08-07-2015, 07:05 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(08-07-2015 02:04 AM)TheStraightener Wrote:  
(07-07-2015 06:48 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  joyous, did I mention is it in the 90s in Virginia...

Oh that must be awful. Hanson's Mmmbop blasting on the radio and Sabrina the Teenage Witch on the TV

ugh now that has been stuck in my head since I read that......mmbop dooh wop duh mmmmbop da doooooo oh yeahhh

sigh thanks

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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08-07-2015, 10:27 AM (This post was last modified: 08-07-2015 10:49 AM by The Q Continuum.)
RE: Personal experience argument
(07-07-2015 01:25 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(07-07-2015 09:44 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I think a personal experience/personal encounter with God MAY be valid. Just this weekend at a funeral, I spoke with a woman who claimed three such encounters with Jesus--we discussed it before she prayed with my dad and I to receive Jesus as Savior.
1. You believe in Jesus and his magical abilities
2. Someone claims that Jesus did magical things to them
Conclusion. Jesus must have done magical things to this person as claimed.

1. You don't believe in the Indian gods.
2. Someone claims that the Indian gods did magical things to them
Conclusion. This person making the claim is mistaken.

Gosh. Reread my statement regarding the difference between an encounter with God and verifying the truth claims of a religious text/religious group. Then you might want to try again with an accurate syllogism encapsulating my belief system.

Until you understand that one may encounter God and then variously tell the truth or tell falsehoods regarding the encounter, you will always err in applying the NTS fallacy.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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08-07-2015, 10:29 AM (This post was last modified: 08-07-2015 10:49 AM by The Q Continuum.)
RE: Personal experience argument
(07-07-2015 02:07 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  
(07-07-2015 09:44 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I think a personal experience/personal encounter with God MAY be valid. Just this weekend at a funeral, I spoke with a woman who claimed three such encounters with Jesus--we discussed it before she prayed with my dad and I to receive Jesus as Savior.

However, personal experience doesn't substitute for knowledge/fact checking/research/logic when checking Bible claims or the claims of any religion, even skeptics' claims.


To add to Stevil's post above, I have a good friend that was pretty down and out. He was living on the street, an alcoholic, and doing petty crimes.

One day, he walked into a Hindu temple in LA and claims to have had a personal experience with the Hindu god. His description is pretty much identical to the type of experience that Christians claim they have with their god.

He quit alcohol that day, and preceded to change his life around. 10 years later, he has a successful small business and a nice family. He is still a Hindu and is adamant that his life was changed by the Hindu god.

Is his personal experience valid? Why or why not?

I guess a wise response would be, how would YOU know if it was valid or not? On what basis (psychic, paranormal, mind-reading) are YOU able to qualify/disqualify these kinds of numinous claims? Be honest, can you even verify he walked into a Hindu temple that day? Were you there?

You can see why Christians tire so easily of atheists who tend to judge Christians' personal experiences from afar.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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08-07-2015, 10:30 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(07-07-2015 02:16 PM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  I think the best answer to the "Argument from Personal Experience" (or "personal revelation") is to give your own (since this is about personal experience).

My dream of Heaven:

Many people dream of Heaven and claim it was "just so real!" Mine is no different. And yet... it was so different.

The moment I woke up, I knew I was dead. This was it. I opened my eyes to the hallway of a my high school. It was completely deserted, but a complete mess. Lockers were opened. Books and paperwork strewn about. Pens and pencils lying about creating slip-n-fall hazards all over the floor. The hallway was L-shaped, and as I turned to the left, there was more mess. And as I approached the double doors at the end, I saw blood on the walls. Why? I have no idea. Maybe there was a school shooting and I was one of the victims. But the question and answer did not matter much to me at this point.

As I went to open the door, I could feel the cold steal of the door handle in my hand. Pushing the door open, I felt resistance as the wind outside fought me. And I stepped out onto...

A beach? But it was weird. It was night time on the beach, and there were eight other people there. Seven of them, were dead like me (how did I know this? Again I do not know), and the eighth was St. Peter (I just knew it was St. Peter. I knew it). Behind St. Peter was a set of three steps leading up to a door. Just a door. No building to go with it.

All that was not what was weird about the beach. In somewhat equal spacing throughout the beach, were what looked like black, spikey eggs lying on their side. Not one egg was equal in size to another, ranging from as big as an elephant to as small as a mouse.

"Saint Peter," I asked, "what are these?"

He said, "Within each of these objects is sum of the good deeds of each man and woman throughout their lives until death."

"Do I have one?" I asked.

"No," said Peter. "And that's b-"

And that is when I woke up...

So how can I have a dream like this and still be an atheist? Why can't I use this even as proof to myself that Heaven is for real and Christianity is the way?

Well, for one thing, as I've pointed out in the beginning of the story, it was very different. There's nothing in the Bible that fits this description. I've not heard this same experience from anyone else.

Secondly, I have lots of dreams that I swear seemed so real. A lot of them are recurring dreams: missing an entire semester of college, a sexual encounter with someone I knew in high school or college, dreams of flying, and my favorites are the ones about the Alien (the xenomorph from the movie series). And most of the time they seem so real. So freakin real. Sometimes I want to go back to sleep and finish it. And that never fuckin works does it?

But going back to that dream I can pick out earlier events in my real life for which that dream takes from. I've heard about school shootings, watched "Bowling for Columbine. The door on the beach, with no building, is from "The Drawing of Three" which is the second book of Stephen King's "Dark Tower" series (actually, the dislocated door has been used in other stories, but the Dark Tower sticks with me). And I've heard Heaven stories involving St. Peter and some sort of gimmick used to measure deeds or some crap. Some of them are from faith based jokes told in church.

In any case, that's just one example of a "personal experience". And because I can find other explanations for that very vivid dream, not even I can bring that to a debate, much less convince myself that "heaven is for real".

Um, yes. Which is why my choice was to try to verify the Bible using history, archaeological discoveries, etc. before trusting its contents. It's called "a rational response".

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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