Personal experience argument
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08-07-2015, 10:35 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
Using the bible to prove archaeological discoveries is a waste of time. For example, we now know that the 40 years in the desert story is a myth with zero evidence supporting it. See Jewish antiquities for information on that.

The slaughter of the infants is also unsupported by evidence and is an earlier story or myth.

The Bible is also wrong about things such as stars and the cosmos. It is an ancient work that has been surpassed by superior information.

Give it a rest.

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08-07-2015, 03:10 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
When I was a little girl Jesus talked to me in a vision. I was in my church, praying. The father had just walked by with the incense. I saw him, Jesus as clearly as I see this phone. All of a sudden I was overwhelmed with this vision which appeared to me. He told me not to be scared anymore. He told me he was looking out for me and that everything would be all right. He told me there was no reason to be frightened. And I was comforted. I felt joy that Jesus had spoken to me, that he was looking out for me.

That was seventeen years ago. I am an atheist.

Don't get me wrong, I had "religious experiences" where I felt devotion and religious feeling wash over me up until around the time I turned 20. But that was the clearest I can remember. In church when I was 11. It was the clearest and the most dramatic.

So why am I unconvinced? In fact why am I absolutely sure that what I saw was not real?

Despite the fact that I was a fervent believer, even a fundamentalist until about the age of nine or ten I have always been "rational." I stopped believing in Adam and Eve and the garden of Eden around the time I learned about the solar system and earth history. I had learned through experimentation and exploration that those things which fit and made sense must stay while those things that did not fit with observations must be discarded. I didn't explain it that way but that is how I think on a basic level.

As my education grew I understood that the factual claims of my religion could not be true in the real world. They didn't fit, they didn't make sense in the world as I observed it. But I compartmentalized it. I knew the claims and stories didn't happen in the history of the real world. But hey, I'd talked to freaking Jesus, so it must be right. This was DESPITE knowing that my brain was very capable of making stuff up.

Since I know that the stories of the bible did not happen in the real world, and since I know that my brain is capable of producing these vivid personal experiences, I can find NO justification to accept the personal experience argument. No more than I can accept testimony from those who claim they were abducted by aliens or spent the day with Bigfoot.
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09-07-2015, 10:17 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(08-07-2015 10:35 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Using the bible to prove archaeological discoveries is a waste of time. For example, we now know that the 40 years in the desert story is a myth with zero evidence supporting it. See Jewish antiquities for information on that.

The slaughter of the infants is also unsupported by evidence and is an earlier story or myth.

The Bible is also wrong about things such as stars and the cosmos. It is an ancient work that has been surpassed by superior information.

Give it a rest.

I'm sorry but it is unreasonable to expect to find evidence for desert wanderings upon shifting sands where only tents and no permanent structures resided. You are also underestimating the size of the desert in question and how much digging would be needed to find artifacts--say, the dolls of children or some skeletal remains.

The slaughter of the infants in context was not more than 30 children--all had to be in a little town area of Bethlehem and under age 2. It might have been 10 children. You are less well versed in Roman histories than I if you think soldiers killing 10 kids in the Ancient Near East was "scroll worthy news".

The Bible has been proved correct in certain matters of astronomy and cosmology. For example, the astounding (true) claim that the universe is in expansion.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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09-07-2015, 10:20 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(08-07-2015 03:10 PM)natachan Wrote:  When I was a little girl Jesus talked to me in a vision. I was in my church, praying. The father had just walked by with the incense. I saw him, Jesus as clearly as I see this phone. All of a sudden I was overwhelmed with this vision which appeared to me. He told me not to be scared anymore. He told me he was looking out for me and that everything would be all right. He told me there was no reason to be frightened. And I was comforted. I felt joy that Jesus had spoken to me, that he was looking out for me.

That was seventeen years ago. I am an atheist.

Don't get me wrong, I had "religious experiences" where I felt devotion and religious feeling wash over me up until around the time I turned 20. But that was the clearest I can remember. In church when I was 11. It was the clearest and the most dramatic.

So why am I unconvinced? In fact why am I absolutely sure that what I saw was not real?

Despite the fact that I was a fervent believer, even a fundamentalist until about the age of nine or ten I have always been "rational." I stopped believing in Adam and Eve and the garden of Eden around the time I learned about the solar system and earth history. I had learned through experimentation and exploration that those things which fit and made sense must stay while those things that did not fit with observations must be discarded. I didn't explain it that way but that is how I think on a basic level.

As my education grew I understood that the factual claims of my religion could not be true in the real world. They didn't fit, they didn't make sense in the world as I observed it. But I compartmentalized it. I knew the claims and stories didn't happen in the history of the real world. But hey, I'd talked to freaking Jesus, so it must be right. This was DESPITE knowing that my brain was very capable of making stuff up.

Since I know that the stories of the bible did not happen in the real world, and since I know that my brain is capable of producing these vivid personal experiences, I can find NO justification to accept the personal experience argument. No more than I can accept testimony from those who claim they were abducted by aliens or spent the day with Bigfoot.

But we are speaking only of possibilities here. Possibility--the universe shows evidence of design and order and has one designer. Possibility--a God who could make the entire universe whether instantly or from a Big Bang event could make two "tiny" little people, etc.

I do not accept the personal experience argument regarding salvation. Unless the Word of God is added. Seeing Jesus isn't all--one must trust His death and resurrection to be saved. The resurrection can be arrived at via a combination of God's revelation to you as well as logic, text study, etc.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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09-07-2015, 10:27 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(09-07-2015 10:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The Bible has been proved correct in certain matters of astronomy and cosmology. For example, the astounding (true) claim that the universe is in expansion.

Laughat That's a nice vague "astounding(true)" fact you picked there too. Gimme a rock solid prediction that couldn't have been made by a priest making mystical woo poetry to impress other dolts. i.e. that is clearly and unequivocally not the result of human thought (or whatever passed for thought when the bible was written), but of God bestowing his divine wisdom on us.

Quote me verses, brother cosmologist. There's nothing that quite shows how far you woo peddlers have fallen as your desperate attempts to coopt scientific findings into your little cult. Gone are the days when you guys were the arbiters of truth Smile

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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09-07-2015, 12:04 PM (This post was last modified: 09-07-2015 02:35 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Personal experience argument
(09-07-2015 10:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(08-07-2015 10:35 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Using the bible to prove archaeological discoveries is a waste of time. For example, we now know that the 40 years in the desert story is a myth with zero evidence supporting it. See Jewish antiquities for information on that.

The slaughter of the infants is also unsupported by evidence and is an earlier story or myth.

The Bible is also wrong about things such as stars and the cosmos. It is an ancient work that has been surpassed by superior information.

Give it a rest.

I'm sorry but it is unreasonable to expect to find evidence for desert wanderings upon shifting sands where only tents and no permanent structures resided. You are also underestimating the size of the desert in question and how much digging would be needed to find artifacts--say, the dolls of children or some skeletal remains.

The slaughter of the infants in context was not more than 30 children--all had to be in a little town area of Bethlehem and under age 2. It might have been 10 children. You are less well versed in Roman histories than I if you think soldiers killing 10 kids in the Ancient Near East was "scroll worthy news".

The Bible has been proved correct in certain matters of astronomy and cosmology. For example, the astounding (true) claim that the universe is in expansion.

I disagree, 2 million people stomping around in a circle in a 120 mile wide Sinai Desert for 40 years would leave evidence. Christian Archaeologists tried to find evidence for years trying to validate the story and finally gave up....perhaps a family of 6 slaves escaped and the story, like all biblical stories, got blown WAY out of proportion upon subsequent retellings....I will grant that at most. By the way, in accordance with the fable, if they were formed up in a column as described, the front row would have been in the promised land, while the last row would have still been in Egypt, following the water must have been too challenging for them, regardless, ZERO evidence.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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09-07-2015, 12:22 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(09-07-2015 10:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm sorry but it is unreasonable to expect to find evidence for desert wanderings upon shifting sands where only tents and no permanent structures resided. You are also underestimating the size of the desert in question and how much digging would be needed to find artifacts--say, the dolls of children or some skeletal remains.

Well not entirely true Q. Thou it may be hard it's not unreasonable. They would have had more then tents. Pottery is normaly a popular artifact that could be found. Even native american tribes that would move with the heard would at one point or another stop. Their are nomadic tribes in the middle east today that follow routes that their ancestors placed. things get left behind, or broken and would not be brought on their trip.

Jewelry, tools, maybe a toys. All things that we've found from other nomadic tribes.
[Image: 59A7A1AB-E1B1-498F-A230-80E295A9E7F7_cx0...s_n_r1.jpg]
http://www.rferl.org/content/new_york_ex...42420.html

People have used the bible to map out the route the the Exodus would have taken. Archaeology dose take a lot of time. Sometimes years. But if we have key sights we could find check those out.

[Image: Hebrews%20-%20The%20Exodus%20from%20Egypt.jpg]

From what I could find we haven't found any from the Exodus.

(But do some real research and i'll check out what your findings are.)

You'll also note the absurd distance that they took to get to the "promised land" If they we're being guided by a devine being. Wouldn't it make more sense to take the quicker route?

(09-07-2015 10:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The slaughter of the infants in context was not more than 30 children--all had to be in a little town area of Bethlehem and under age 2. It might have been 10 children. You are less well versed in Roman histories than I if you think soldiers killing 10 kids in the Ancient Near East was "scroll worthy news".

The correct number of infants that should have been slaughtered is 0.

(09-07-2015 10:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The Bible has been proved correct in certain matters of astronomy and cosmology. For example, the astounding (true) claim that the universe is in expansion.

Vague comments.
Job 9:8 He alone stretches out the heavens and treads on the waves of the sea.

Psalm 104:2 The Lord wraps himself in light as with a garment; he stretches out the heavens like a tent

In Genesis 1:6 - 1:8
And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
[Image: Ancient-Hebrew-view-of-universe.png]

They are talking about the ferment. The bubble that protected earth. Not the expansion of the universe.

Stretches out the heavens like a tent.

[Image: img-deserts-bedouintent.jpg]

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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09-07-2015, 12:37 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(08-07-2015 10:29 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(07-07-2015 02:07 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  To add to Stevil's post above, I have a good friend that was pretty down and out. He was living on the street, an alcoholic, and doing petty crimes.

One day, he walked into a Hindu temple in LA and claims to have had a personal experience with the Hindu god. His description is pretty much identical to the type of experience that Christians claim they have with their god.

He quit alcohol that day, and preceded to change his life around. 10 years later, he has a successful small business and a nice family. He is still a Hindu and is adamant that his life was changed by the Hindu god.

Is his personal experience valid? Why or why not?

I guess a wise response would be, how would YOU know if it was valid or not? On what basis (psychic, paranormal, mind-reading) are YOU able to qualify/disqualify these kinds of numinous claims? Be honest, can you even verify he walked into a Hindu temple that day? Were you there?

You can see why Christians tire so easily of atheists who tend to judge Christians' personal experiences from afar.

I think you kind of missed my point.

If a Christian that you knew to be sane and reliable, claimed to have a personal experience with Jesus, you would be very likely to believe them. Correct?

But if a person of similar sanity and reliability came to you and claimed they had an experience with the Hindu god, I would guess that you would dismiss their claim.

What I am trying to figure out here is, when a person claims to have a personal experience with a god, what is the algorithm you use in order to tell the difference between a legitimate experience with a god, and one that is probably something else?

Because as an outsider, all claimed personal experiences with gods look a lot like misinterpretations of a natural brain state, that are framed with religious trappings.

For example: put a person in a Church environment, surround them with, dozens or more believers, religious iconography, people singing hymns joyously, repeating ritual words in unison, a pastor speaking in a charismatic manner, etc and it is pretty well understood that this can cause a change in brain states. So, they have a completely natural change in brain states, and they frame it with Christian meaning, reinforced by all the other believers around them.

Now, lets say another person is in the same environment, but they have an actual experience with a god. As an outsider, how am I supposed to know the difference? How do you tell the difference?
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09-07-2015, 12:51 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(09-07-2015 10:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm sorry but it is unreasonable to expect to find evidence for desert wanderings upon shifting sands where only tents and no permanent structures resided. You are also underestimating the size of the desert in question and how much digging would be needed to find artifacts--say, the dolls of children or some skeletal remains.

What a surprise.

You know almost nothing of archaeology.

Archaeologists constantly find the remnants of temporary settlements, in equally harsh conditions as the Sinai, of much smaller size than the supposed 1 million plus Hebrews, livestock, carts, etc supposedly wandering around the Sinai for 40 years.

Remnants of very small settlements (a few hundred people) older than the time of the supposed Exodus have been found all over the world in equally harsh conditions.
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09-07-2015, 12:57 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(09-07-2015 12:22 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  
(09-07-2015 10:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm sorry but it is unreasonable to expect to find evidence for desert wanderings upon shifting sands where only tents and no permanent structures resided. You are also underestimating the size of the desert in question and how much digging would be needed to find artifacts--say, the dolls of children or some skeletal remains.

Well not entirely true Q. Thou it may be hard it's not unreasonable. They would have had more then tents. Pottery is normaly a popular artifact that could be found. Even native american tribes that would move with the heard would at one point or another stop. Their are nomadic tribes in the middle east today that follow routes that their ancestors placed. things get left behind, or broken and would not be brought on their trip.

Jewelry, tools, maybe a toys. All things that we've found from other nomadic tribes.
[Image: 59A7A1AB-E1B1-498F-A230-80E295A9E7F7_cx0...s_n_r1.jpg]
http://www.rferl.org/content/new_york_ex...42420.html

People have used the bible to map out the route the the Exodus would have taken. Archaeology dose take a lot of time. Sometimes years. But if we have key sights we could find check those out.

[Image: Hebrews%20-%20The%20Exodus%20from%20Egypt.jpg]

From what I could find we haven't found any from the Exodus.

(But do some real research and i'll check out what your findings are.)

You'll also note the absurd distance that they took to get to the "promised land" If they we're being guided by a devine being. Wouldn't it make more sense to take the quicker route?

(09-07-2015 10:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The slaughter of the infants in context was not more than 30 children--all had to be in a little town area of Bethlehem and under age 2. It might have been 10 children. You are less well versed in Roman histories than I if you think soldiers killing 10 kids in the Ancient Near East was "scroll worthy news".

The correct number of infants that should have been slaughtered is 0.

(09-07-2015 10:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The Bible has been proved correct in certain matters of astronomy and cosmology. For example, the astounding (true) claim that the universe is in expansion.

Vague comments.
Job 9:8 He alone stretches out the heavens and treads on the waves of the sea.

Psalm 104:2 The Lord wraps himself in light as with a garment; he stretches out the heavens like a tent

In Genesis 1:6 - 1:8
And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
[Image: Ancient-Hebrew-view-of-universe.png]

They are talking about the ferment. The bubble that protected earth. Not the expansion of the universe.

Stretches out the heavens like a tent.

[Image: img-deserts-bedouintent.jpg]

Yep, and if the Nile turned it's 4,000 mile+ length to blood, they could have easily found a blood layer somewhere along its length. Also every fish in the Nile would have died, I'm pretty sure there would be some type of evidence if EVERY fish in the Nile died.

The story also said that Egypt's livestock were killed, I think we could find evidence of every single livestock in Egypt being killed.

I also think some of those countries that traded with Egypt would have mentioned something in their records about Egypt having no fish or livestock to trade.

The myth of Moses oversteps and exaggerates so much that it turns the story into a ridiculous fairytale. They're not even good storytellers, anyone with a sense of reality would try to downplay some of these events even if they really happened to maintain believability.

The stories were targeted at primitive savages that had no way of knowing whether it rang true or not, the more educated people of the time didn't believe any of these horseshit stories anyway, they knew it was just a means to control people.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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