Personal experience argument
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09-07-2015, 01:00 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(09-07-2015 10:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The Bible has been proved correct in certain matters of astronomy and cosmology. For example, the astounding (true) claim that the universe is in expansion.


Utter, unsubstantiated horseshit.

The cave dwellers who wrote the drivel that got compiled into what you call "God's Word" had no fucking idea of what a universe IS...... They didn't even realize they lived on a planet.

Your lying drivel is getting really old....

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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09-07-2015, 02:06 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
The four Biblical types of "science" are also some of its approaches to prophesy.

Approach 1: Say shit that could easily have been discovered in that day and age, like the fact that the oceans have currents or that sheep give birth to sheep rather than chickens. Let later generations (such as our own) hype and shill this as some vast god-given knowledge, when really any schmuck could have written it down. This is like finding an existing bullet hole and target on the broadside of the barn and then bragging that you were the one who shot the bullseye.

Approach 2: Say a whole bunch of vague, poetic stuff. When some of that vague poetic stuff bears a passing resemblance to things that science later discovers if you squint really hard, declare victory. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD YOU CLEARLY STATE THE SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERY IN PRECISE AND UNAMBIGUOUS TERMS. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD YOU EVER ACKNOWLEDGE THE FACT THAT NOT ONE BELIEVER EVER TOOK THIS VERSE FOR WHAT IT "TRULY" MEANT UNTIL SCIENTISTS HAD ALREADY FOUND THE TRUTH ON THEIR OWN. This is like plugging thousands of bullets into the broad side of the barn, and then jumping around like overjoyed incontinent monkeys when the scientists figure out where the target actually was and, surprise, there's a bullet sorta kinda near it. ... of course, sometimes there isn't, like with the Theory of Evolution and the age of the Earth. Those incontinent monkeys get really nasty when that happens.

This approach is usually the basis for the "Bible predicted the expanding universe" claim. It's usually predicated on phrases about how God spread the heavens over our heads like a tent, which is neither a clear enunciation of a currently-expanding universe, nor unambiguous in its meaning (and seems, on plain reading, to be talking about the momentary action of putting in place a static, physical roof or ceiling, rather than a dynamic expansion of stars, or to simply be flowery metaphor), nor caused a great many believers to believe in an expanding universe until Hubble taught them otherwise. The other verses cited as this scientific claim are that God "bows the heavens", which is even vaguer, even more ambiguous, even less like the actual science on plain reading, and proved just as great of a failure in cluing people in.

Approach 3: Pretend it's science because it's in the Bible, even when real science disagrees with it. This is akin to missing the target on the barn wall... and the entire barn... and then going to the tree you accidentally hit and drawing a bullseye around the bullet hole.

Approach 4: Ignore every example of false "science" in the Bible. Ever. Such as, say, rabbits chewing their cud, or human languages diverging from a single location in the Middle East only a few thousand years ago. In particular, ignore all the thousands of ways that the extremely vague flowery language can be loosely interpreted as BAD science, and just focus on the equally-loose interpretation that matches up. That stretched-out-the-heavens line? Maintain, now and always, in true Orwellian fashion, that does not AND NEVER DID mean the firmament, despite that being what Christians thought it meant for most of Christian history until the scientists showed them better and got severely persecuted for it. No. The Bible always meant that this was an expanding universe, just as you have always been at war with Eastasia. This is akin to riddling the barn into more holes than wood with a Gatling gun, and then refusing to acknowledge any of the holes save the five that actually hit the target, but instead brag incessantly about those five.

One thing to note of all these approaches, is that they are not things that people do when they actually give a damn about finding the truth, or honestly evaluating some method for its capacity to arrive at the truth. They're what people do when they care more about looking good than being correct. When they want to spin their failures, pull the wool over the eyes of others, put on a veneer of unearned respectability, and steal credit from others. These are tactics of fundamentally and unwaveringly dishonest people: con artists, hoodwinkers, and apologists.
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09-07-2015, 05:04 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(09-07-2015 02:06 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  Such as, say, rabbits chewing their cud, or human languages diverging from a single location in the Middle East only a few thousand years ago.

First of all, excellent post!

This point in the Bible is just so ludicrous. I live in Australia where the world's oldest culture is, that of the Koori people (Australian aboriginals). Their culture dates back over 60,000 years.

Australia has been so distant for so long it has animals like no others found on the planet.

Christians and anyone who believes the Abrahamic religions are so stupid!

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09-07-2015, 05:06 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(09-07-2015 10:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm sorry but it is unreasonable to expect to find evidence for desert wanderings upon shifting sands where only tents and no permanent structures resided. You are also underestimating the size of the desert in question and how much digging would be needed to find artifacts--say, the dolls of children or some skeletal remains.

The slaughter of the infants in context was not more than 30 children--all had to be in a little town area of Bethlehem and under age 2. It might have been 10 children. You are less well versed in Roman histories than I if you think soldiers killing 10 kids in the Ancient Near East was "scroll worthy news".

The Bible has been proved correct in certain matters of astronomy and cosmology. For example, the astounding (true) claim that the universe is in expansion.


See my post above. Especially my last point.

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09-07-2015, 07:37 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(09-07-2015 10:20 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But we are speaking only of possibilities here. Possibility--the universe shows evidence of design and order and has one designer. Possibility--a God who could make the entire universe whether instantly or from a Big Bang event could make two "tiny" little people, etc.


I don't see it that way.

What is a God? I understood God to be an intelligent agent who was almighty (this is opposed to omnipotence, which is impossible. A being is considered almighty if it can do many things within finite limits) and who was present all through the universe.

How would I observe this entity? The universe did not seem to need such a being. The universe seems to get on just fine without any divine intercession. I hear claims that the universe has order, so the laws of the universe must be intelligently ordered. This seems backward to me. It is not that the laws of physics must be intelligently designed because the universe is orderly. The universe is orderly because that is how physics works. I don't think they could be otherwise, in which I differ from other atheists. I happen to think the laws are fixed and rely on each other, the way that the circumference of a circle is a fixed ratio to its diameter. I might be wrong, but this is how I see it and this is what makes sense to me.

The idea of a divine agent who is cause less and outside the universe does not make sense, and seems unnecessary.

Quote:I do not accept the personal experience argument regarding salvation. Unless the Word of God is added. Seeing Jesus isn't all--one must trust His death and resurrection to be saved. The resurrection can be arrived at via a combination of God's revelation to you as well as logic, text study, etc.

But there was the problem, at some point you have to start holding up the bible as an authority. And I can't. The stories in it are wrong too often. I know that much of it did not happen in the real world. I KNOW that a good deal of the life of Jesus in the gospels is fabricated. I know that the stories in the Old Testament are fables at best.

I studied the books. I read them in multiple languages. Multiple translations, multiple versions. I read the non-canonical gospels. There was nothing to back up the vision. Nothing to indicate that it was anything other than a delusion of my own mind.

I studied archeology. I handled many artifacts, read many ancient texts and studied many ancient cultures. I learned about the origin of the religions of the Middle East and I learned where they came from. And the stories of the bible did not fit into the world that I saw.

It hurt. I wanted to believe. But I am rational. I am logical. If all the available evidence points one way, and my subjective experience points another, I must follow the path that has the strongest support to it.
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09-07-2015, 07:51 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(09-07-2015 05:04 PM)Banjo Wrote:  This point in the Bible is just so ludicrous. I live in Australia where the world's oldest culture is, that of the Koori people (Australian aboriginals). Their culture dates back over 60,000 years.

IKR?
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09-07-2015, 08:01 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(09-07-2015 07:51 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(09-07-2015 05:04 PM)Banjo Wrote:  This point in the Bible is just so ludicrous. I live in Australia where the world's oldest culture is, that of the Koori people (Australian aboriginals). Their culture dates back over 60,000 years.

IKR?

That was awesome. Thanks, I needed that. Smile

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09-07-2015, 08:04 PM
RE: Personal experience argument
(09-07-2015 07:37 PM)natachan Wrote:  I happen to think the laws are fixed and rely on each other, the way that the circumference of a circle is a fixed ratio to its diameter.

Fun math fact! If you use a different metric, then the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter is no longer fixed at pi. Pi is only significant because our universe is Euclidean. (Well, mostly Euclidean. Things get wonky near black holes... and the rest of it might be a LITTLE bit off of Euclidean, but not so far off that our instruments can tell. Yet.)

For example, if instead of Euclidean space we lived in a universe with the 1-metric, the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter could be 4, instead of 3.14...
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10-07-2015, 10:31 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(09-07-2015 10:27 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(09-07-2015 10:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The Bible has been proved correct in certain matters of astronomy and cosmology. For example, the astounding (true) claim that the universe is in expansion.

Laughat That's a nice vague "astounding(true)" fact you picked there too. Gimme a rock solid prediction that couldn't have been made by a priest making mystical woo poetry to impress other dolts. i.e. that is clearly and unequivocally not the result of human thought (or whatever passed for thought when the bible was written), but of God bestowing his divine wisdom on us.

Quote me verses, brother cosmologist. There's nothing that quite shows how far you woo peddlers have fallen as your desperate attempts to coopt scientific findings into your little cult. Gone are the days when you guys were the arbiters of truth Smile

Sure, here are ten prophecies to start: http://www.watchmanbiblestudy.com/Articl...illed.html and please take particular note of the prophecy of Ezekiel 4:3-6.

Thanks!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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10-07-2015, 10:36 AM
RE: Personal experience argument
(09-07-2015 12:04 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(09-07-2015 10:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm sorry but it is unreasonable to expect to find evidence for desert wanderings upon shifting sands where only tents and no permanent structures resided. You are also underestimating the size of the desert in question and how much digging would be needed to find artifacts--say, the dolls of children or some skeletal remains.

The slaughter of the infants in context was not more than 30 children--all had to be in a little town area of Bethlehem and under age 2. It might have been 10 children. You are less well versed in Roman histories than I if you think soldiers killing 10 kids in the Ancient Near East was "scroll worthy news".

The Bible has been proved correct in certain matters of astronomy and cosmology. For example, the astounding (true) claim that the universe is in expansion.

I disagree, 2 million people stomping around in a circle in a 120 mile wide Sinai Desert for 40 years would leave evidence. Christian Archaeologists tried to find evidence for years trying to validate the story and finally gave up....perhaps a family of 6 slaves escaped and the story, like all biblical stories, got blown WAY out of proportion upon subsequent retellings....I will grant that at most. By the way, in accordance with the fable, if they were formed up in a column as described, the front row would have been in the promised land, while the last row would have still been in Egypt, following the water must have been too challenging for them, regardless, ZERO evidence.

Did the Bible say the Jews went 8 persons across the Sea? I thought that was Talmud. Regardless, consider the Israeli plane that was discovered under 40 feet of Sinai sand after only 50 years or so...

Here is some archaeological findings re: the Exodus. Bear in mind that a conservative Bible timeline of an Exodus circa 1450 BC matches the historical-era records of a power vacuum in Egypt, etc. especially when taking into account dark periods in Egypt's timeline/dynastic gaps. Mainline scholars love to make the Exodus Pharaoh Rameses and ruin the timeline--finding nothing archaeologically where the Bible says in history they'd find nothing:

http://www.bibleandscience.com/archaeology/exodus.htm

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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