Personhood
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13-02-2014, 04:11 AM
RE: Personhood
(13-02-2014 03:22 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
Quote:Really do need to finish War and Peace and move on to Anna Karenina. But then I'll need to find a new book...

More like masturbate, watch anime and play video games.

I actually do have those books and they are quite enjoyable to read, but the translator for War and Peace did decide to leave the occasional French phrase in, that a bit of a pain to read through when they come up, ultimately a good book, well as far as page 1004 it is a very good read. As for Anna Karenina I have to admit I haven't properly begun to read it; I'd like to finish War and Peace first.

However video games aren't out of the question, unfortunately I only own Clannad so anime is out more or less, have to space out re-watching.

(13-02-2014 03:22 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
Quote:Though I never said I was trying to kill you 'with my rhetorical powers', that would be absurd, you can't kill with rhetoric.

So you don't understand metaphor either.

Why would you bother saying something if you didn't mean it to be taken at face value?

(13-02-2014 03:22 AM)Chippy Wrote:  In your bio you wrote:

"I also hope to study evolutionary biology and other sciences."

Quite so, dear chap. I do have an interest in evolutionary biology, it's interesting.
However the 'other sciences' part is waning in importance; stuff outside biology is a little dull to me, plus I'd be hopeless in chemistry or physics, too many formulas and the like.

(13-02-2014 03:22 AM)Chippy Wrote:  You are a 17-year old with a dictionary so you know all that can be known.

Thanks, but that's just as absurd as your belief that I'd try to murder you with rhetoric. Of all the things that can be known, I know pretty much nothing; first to admit it. But I don't think any one human could ever known all that can be known anyway.

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13-02-2014, 04:17 AM
RE: Personhood
(13-02-2014 04:10 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(13-02-2014 03:42 AM)Chippy Wrote:  No they can't because they have no brain. ...

Unless you count the data gathered from such cases, which adds to the body of knowledge, as a contribution.

Consider

Or the sanity of the mother. I doubt I could go on functioning as a mother if I was drowning in the guilt of donating my own living child's organs just because he didn't have a brain.
I feel like you have to be a sociopath to have no empathy for the mother in this video.

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13-02-2014, 04:29 AM
RE: Personhood
(13-02-2014 04:11 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  ...
I actually do have those books and they are quite enjoyable to read, but the translator for War and Peace did decide to leave the occasional French phrase in, that a bit of a pain to read through when they come up, ultimately a good book, well as far as page 1004 it is a very good read.
...

I found the Peace bits boring. Loved the War bits.

But then, I'm a non-empathetic sociopath.

Drinking Beverage

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13-02-2014, 04:56 AM
RE: Personhood
(13-02-2014 04:29 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(13-02-2014 04:11 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  ...
I actually do have those books and they are quite enjoyable to read, but the translator for War and Peace did decide to leave the occasional French phrase in, that a bit of a pain to read through when they come up, ultimately a good book, well as far as page 1004 it is a very good read.
...

I found the Peace bits boring. Loved the War bits.

But then, I'm a non-empathetic sociopath.

Drinking Beverage

The Peace parts do tend to drag on a little... I can assure you, one can read of Anna Pavlovna's soirées, Hélène's seeming adulterous nature or her beauty or Natasha Rostov being giddily in love or Pierre Bezuhov debating God so often before you start to dislike them and wish for the story to move on... But Tolstoy does love to go on and on about the sound of cannon and musket when war comes around...

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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13-02-2014, 05:01 AM
RE: Personhood
(13-02-2014 04:56 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(13-02-2014 04:29 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I found the Peace bits boring. Loved the War bits.

But then, I'm a non-empathetic sociopath.

Drinking Beverage

The Peace parts do tend to drag on a little... I can assure you, one can read of Anna Pavlovna's soirées, Hélène's seeming adulterous nature or her beauty or Natasha Rostov being giddily in love or Pierre Bezuhov debating God so often before you start to dislike them and wish for the story to move on... But Tolstoy does love to go on and on about the sound of cannon and musket when war comes around...

Definition of a non-person... someone who has not read War and Peace.

(in Russian, by candle-light, in a tent, in the Lake District)

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13-02-2014, 05:03 AM
RE: Personhood
(13-02-2014 04:29 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(13-02-2014 04:11 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  ...
I actually do have those books and they are quite enjoyable to read, but the translator for War and Peace did decide to leave the occasional French phrase in, that a bit of a pain to read through when they come up, ultimately a good book, well as far as page 1004 it is a very good read.
...

I found the Peace bits boring. Loved the War bits.

But then, I'm a non-empathetic sociopath.

Drinking Beverage
I didn't mean you. Sad

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13-02-2014, 05:22 AM (This post was last modified: 13-02-2014 05:54 AM by Chippy.)
RE: Personhood
(13-02-2014 04:11 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  Why would you bother saying something if you didn't mean it to be taken at face value?
...
Thanks, but that's just as absurd as your belief that I'd try to murder you with rhetoric. Of all the things that can be known, I know pretty much nothing; first to admit it. But I don't think any one human could ever known all that can be known anyway.

Do you have a intellectual deficit that prevents you from understanding metaphorical, ironic and idiomatic language?

You posted that you are interested in evolutionary biology. So do you take the construction "phylogenetic tree of life" literally? Do you take that phrase as referring to an an actual member of the plant kingdom? And do you take the taxon plant kingdom to refer to an actual monarchy comprised of plants? In short, are you a retard?
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13-02-2014, 05:27 AM
RE: Personhood
The lesson: having or not having brain is not important, as long as you have a moving face.

Also, they claim the baby can recognize if held by mother or grandmother. That is hard to prove, but it's their problem, nobody's taking the baby away. They are right to take care of it. But in their place I'd make some kind of arrangement with surgeons to get it under the knife for spare parts the moment the baby goes into critical state. Saving one life is good, possibly saving several other lives is even better.
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13-02-2014, 10:52 AM
RE: Personhood
(13-02-2014 03:34 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(13-02-2014 03:06 AM)BeccaBoo Wrote:  and maybe the brain stem can compensate, albeit in an almost neglible level from our perspective, for some functions of the missing brain.

No it can't do that anymore than the liver can "compensate" for missing kidneys. As I have already explained to you the cerebrum is able to "compensate" for damaged and missing portions by reorganizing its functioning and it is able to do this because its functions are localised and lateralised. The brainstem does not have a morphology which would permit that--it has no hemispheres.

Quote:You mentioned MRI brain imaging and scientists being able to watch the cognitive processes at work,

No, BuckyBall did.

Quote: but how many MRI's have been done on children like this one?

Do you need an exact number?

Quote: I'm not saying a child with only a brain stem can calculate or think in the way we do, but IMO it does stand to reason that, with the brain stem alone, there is a nascent form of sentience that still renders the person able to subjectively respond to stimuli, as some family members in these cases have attested.

No, that is not possible. He needs at least a cerebellum to form conditioned responses. And even with conditioned responses he can't be said to "subjectively respond". Conditioned responses don't form a part of subjectivity, they happen "unconsciously" just like reflexes.

You say it is not possible and I understand that you are basing this on studies of the brain. However, what kind of results have been found from MRIs of children who are born only with brain stems?

One very detailed account of a family with such a child is the story about Charity Yorgason, who lived to age 7 with her adoptive family. She did indeed appear to respond subjectively to stimuli.

I am saying that, in the presence of only a brain stem and not the rest of the brain, there may be capabilities we are not aware of because such a case is relatively rare and hard to study and this could account for observed behaviors accounted by subjects' families.
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13-02-2014, 10:54 AM
RE: Personhood
(13-02-2014 03:42 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(13-02-2014 03:17 AM)BeccaBoo Wrote:  There are children like this who do contribute to society

No they can't because they have no brain. The boy has no thoughts, no emotions, no memory--all he has is primitive somatic sensations and reflexes in response to environmental stimuli.

Quote:That said, something's gotta be said about how we decide or define a person's right to live. It has to be, it must be axiomatic or we will fall into traps that make civil society impossible.

Indeed, but we can't be sentimental about these matters. It is an entirely empirical matter what an anencephalic can or can't do. Your speculations, hopes and conjectures don't help, they only confuse the issue further.

That response seems circular. A child can contribute because of their presence, because of their helplessness, and because of the way they respond. People have already testified to the productive impact of such a child in their life.
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