Persuade an atheist
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16-04-2015, 05:39 AM
RE: Persuade an atheist
(16-04-2015 05:12 AM)The Theist Wrote:  
(16-04-2015 05:03 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mark. Your giving a passage which clearly states the soul dies and can be destroyed in order to support the immortal soul.

"Make the Bible say that the soul is immortal."

You have just done it for me!.....

"Your giving a passage which clearly states the soul dies and can be destroyed in order to support the immortal soul."
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16-04-2015, 06:01 AM
RE: Persuade an atheist
We have St Paul writing in the Bible...

"13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." (1 Thess 4)

"Forever" is identical to immortality.

So....we have some "souls" that are mortal, and some immortal. Yawn.

What are we discussing? The ramblings of primitive and uneducated bullshitters. In one sense it's pathetic that we are still having this conversation in the 21'st century, yet those of us who care about the big picture are forced to deconstruct this nonsense.
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16-04-2015, 07:27 AM
RE: Persuade an atheist
(15-04-2015 10:01 PM)The Theist Wrote:  
(15-04-2015 09:53 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Life exists, blood exists, and creatures do breathe and die. There's no evidence that there is anything associated with any of those that could be called a soul.

Wrong.

Can't argue with such a well-supported, eloquent rebuttal like that. How about providing some of the evidence if you think it exists (hint: the bible is a claim, it is not evidence of anything except that a book was compiled).

Your interpretation if Ezekial 18 is very literal and depends on which translation you use. Other translations present it differently and the commentary on that page reads the soul dying differently:
Quote:the soul that sinneth, it shall die; the soul that continues in sin, without repentance towards God, and faith in Christ, shall die the second death; shall be separated from the presence of God, and endure his wrath to all eternity: or the meaning is, that a person that is guilty of gross sins, and continues in them, shall personally suffer; he shall endure one calamity or another, as the famine, sword, pestilence, or be carried into captivity, which is the death all along spoken of in this chapter; the Lord will exercise no patience towards him, or defer punishment to a future generation, his offspring; but shall immediately execute it upon himself.

In addition, the concept of an afterlife when it was written was more of a sleep or dull holding area so what they meant may not match what you mean today. That's the problem with using the bible; it is impossible to separate literal from metaphorical and it can be interpreted whatever way you want to. We wouldn't have thousands of Christian denominations with different beliefs about what it says if it were possible to determine a 'correct' reading.

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16-04-2015, 08:05 AM (This post was last modified: 16-04-2015 08:20 AM by true scotsman.)
RE: Persuade an atheist
(16-04-2015 05:11 AM)The Theist Wrote:  
(16-04-2015 04:50 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  There's no obligation, on our part, to refute the arbitrary. It should properly be dismissed without consideration.

That's the spirit! Either ignore it until it goes away or replace it with your own arbitrariness. So long as you do it in ignorance.

You are so funny! What arbitrariness did I replace your arbitrary statements with? Can you point to anything that I said which was arbitrary? Do you think it is my responsibility to refute claims for which there is no evidence?

Yesterday, Doggondada, the god of woodworking, came to my shop and helped me with a difficult project. Of course there is no evidence of this since the only ones there were myself and his heavenly creatures to witness it. Now if you can learn about my claim and grow to trust it, then you will know that Doggondada is real and actually exists. In other words if you can imagine Doggondada coming down to my shop to help me, and then pretend that what you're imagining is real, then you will know.

You can quote the Bible all you want and argue about the nature of souls but in the end we have no alternative but to imagine these things. How is what we are imagining not imaginary? How can we reliably distinguish what you call "God" from something that you are merely imagining and then pretending is real? That is the heart of the issue. That is the only issue that matters. You guys will argue all day about a particular passage in the Bible but when it comes to discussing fundamental principles you run for the hills. I think it's because you know deep down, maybe only subconsciously, that the fundamental principles you are operating on are false. I can't prove it but that is my guess.

So answer my challenge and prove us all wrong, right here, right now. How can we reliably distinguish what you call "God" from something you are merely imagining and then pretending is real?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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16-04-2015, 08:10 AM
RE: Persuade an atheist
It doesn't matter how great a theist thinks their arguments are, and how wrong they think atheists are. If they convince no one with their arguments, they have failed that day. The ball is always in their court.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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16-04-2015, 10:03 AM
RE: Persuade an atheist
(15-04-2015 08:53 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  The final paragraph is interesting (aside from all the misspellings).

"An all too common mistake made by many Christians when broaching the subject of religion to atheists (especialy with an eye to convertion) is that the atheist is coming from a place of ignorance. It is extremely useful to keep in mind that the VAST majority of atheists you are likely to meet were brought up in the Christian faith. Most of them once believed, honestly and whole heartedly, were actively involved with their church and held as true all aspects of the faith. In time these ex-Christians, either through study, personal journey or some other reason came to a place where they simply could not hold their beliefs as true any more. And so they turned away. Frequently they had trouble with some aspect in their religious life/beliefs and so went seeking answers, be that in discussions with their priest, peers, deep and full bible study, philosophy, religious history or even comparative religion and science. So here is a warning. You may believe you are bringing them a fresh and bight mesage of good news, one they are unaware of, but the odds are that they have a far greater and deeper academic knoledge of the subject than you. A knowledge that lead to them dismissing their faith. A knowledge not only of Christianity, but of a large number of other faiths, philosophies, history and science. Also as they have lived it, they know what it is like to be in the light and love of God. Many openly admit they miss the clarity and comunity/cultural aspect of it all, but believe that to feign a belief simply to re-gain all this, is tantamount to bearing false witness. And that, even as atheists, they would find hard to swallow. So be careful, and think more than twice before attempting to convert your atheist friend. Talking with your friend on the subject of God and faith just might expose you to questions you can’t find the answer to.

Big Grin

Very good thoughts here. I agree with much of it. I've learned in my time here to not take out the canard that all atheists are in some kind of denial about God. Rather, I feel like you may have not encountered God just yet.

And I certainly perceive that TTA members are HIGHLY educated and intelligent as a whole. I like to bring Xianity here, to paraphrase Sinatra, "if I can make it here I can make it anywhere.."

I guess the thing I still dislike is that it's passive-aggressive, or so it has been said, to tell someone you're praying for them--sometimes it's the only response I've said to someone who is shouting at me in public! "Dude, I forgive you, chill, I'll pray for you to be okay..."

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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16-04-2015, 11:39 AM
RE: Persuade an atheist
This is getting a little too "I'm right you're wrong neener neener".
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16-04-2015, 02:55 PM
RE: Persuade an atheist
(16-04-2015 10:03 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I guess the thing I still dislike is that it's passive-aggressive, or so it has been said, to tell someone you're praying for them--sometimes it's the only response I've said to someone who is shouting at me in public! "Dude, I forgive you, chill, I'll pray for you to be okay..."

Don't you see how condescending that is?

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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16-04-2015, 04:05 PM
RE: Persuade an atheist
(16-04-2015 02:55 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(16-04-2015 10:03 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I guess the thing I still dislike is that it's passive-aggressive, or so it has been said, to tell someone you're praying for them--sometimes it's the only response I've said to someone who is shouting at me in public! "Dude, I forgive you, chill, I'll pray for you to be okay..."

Don't you see how condescending that is?

I have a theory: Q Cunt is Satan. Who else would make such persistently inane, unpersuasive, yet pleasant sounding "defenses" of indefensible beliefs?

Someone call an exorcist, quick!

God does not work in mysterious ways — he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.
Jesus had a pretty rough weekend for your sins.
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16-04-2015, 04:57 PM
RE: Persuade an atheist
(16-04-2015 02:55 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(16-04-2015 10:03 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I guess the thing I still dislike is that it's passive-aggressive, or so it has been said, to tell someone you're praying for them--sometimes it's the only response I've said to someone who is shouting at me in public! "Dude, I forgive you, chill, I'll pray for you to be okay..."

Don't you see how condescending that is?

I will pray for him.

#sigh
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