(13-12-2012 08:06 PM)Phil_GA Wrote:
Quote:I do not use the bible as my standard for Morality. Morality is subjective, but has evolutionary influences. We as a social species are coded with a basic version of morality that most of us share. ...
Ok, so we know that you don't claim the Bible as the source from which you draw your moral code. However, you claim that whatever basis makes up your moral code is simultaneously subjective and yet is coded within most of us.
A few points:
1. A subjective code is not objective enough to stand alone as self-evident, else it would not be subject to the whims of external influence. Therefore, it must either borrow from a pre-existing code or is completely reliant upon another code, and you're either intentionally or unintentionally ignoring the more objective code. Its inherent subjectivity will eventually break itself down. Therefore, why base your life on a shifting code that changes on a moment's notice?
2. If the moral code is encoded within most of us, as you claim, but yet is also subjective, I would have to ask, how is this possible? Does the encoded code within most of us actually change?
3. To say that a moral code is encoded within most of us, are we therefore presupposing an intelligent order of something that essentially put this code in most of us? If something/one intelligent didn't do so, then how did this moral code become encoded within us?
Quote:You have to prove that the Bible was the first to come up with these moral laws.
I won't make that claim.
Quote:Society has a huge influence on morality or your views n what it right and what is wrong. My views are influenced by my society, but they are not dependent on it.
This will definitely work if your morale code is subjective, but such subjectivity has its own challenges, as previously described. But there could also be issues if your moral code is encoded within yourself. I'd like to know how a society (a collection of individuals) influences your internal moral coding. I would think that such internal coding would be much less subject to change.
Quote:You ask where my morality comes from? Well, I follow the "Try not to hurt others in anyway unless my life, or the life of innocents in in grave danger."
Yes, but that still doesn't answer the question, because this basic code is not original to you. Therefore, outside of God, it would be interesting to know which existing moral code you're pulling this from.
Quote:Why does there need to be a standard? Why is God law's the standard? What evidence do you have that God's laws are the end-all-be-all in terms of morality.
I think there needs to be a standard (that isn't subjective) because of the following:
1. To say that there are no moral absolutes must necessarily include this statement, which is self-contadictory, because it claims an absolute that there are no absolutes. Therefore, such code cannot be consistently trusted because it is subjective and only has the meaning that any given person gives it.
2. Given point 1, why were, say, the Nazis bad (if you think they were) to kill a whole ethnicity of people because they thought they were morally justified to cleanse (as they called it) their part of the world from said ethnicity? Obviously, their rationale was deeper than that, but they felt justified at the time they were doing the murdering. Why were they wrong, assuming you think they were wrong? On what basis, assuming they had a subjective standard of morality? In other words, why would your moral code be considered by you superior to yours?
Quote:We are human, we are entitled to SOME mistakes.
According to whom or what are you entitled to make mistakes (sins) against yourself, and why?
Reply at your leisure.
First of all. I said very there were basics that were encoded. I did NOT make the claim that we had our morals FULLY encoded. Evolution produces the basis based on the fact that in order to survive we need to cooperate and work together. Evolution is not an itelligent process.
Saying that there are no moral absolutes doesn't mean there aren't any OTHER absolutes. In order for you to convince me of such absolute you have to prove it.
The very fact that there are people who still think nazism is a good thing shows that there is such a thing as subjective morality.
Why do you feel that my moral code has to be original? I feel that it is irrelevant or not that my moral code must originate completely by myself. The point is that my moral code is independent of the bible.
Credit goes to UndercoverAtheist.