Philosophers! Help me out with a thing!
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05-11-2013, 11:17 PM
Philosophers! Help me out with a thing!
Assuming that there is a being who is all powerful and all knowing (omnipotent and omniscient), does it follow that for s/he to know a thing is to will that thing?

Does that make sense? If so is it logically consistent?

Blink

(No I am not addled with drink or other stupefying substances though probably I should be.)

-- Max

I came into this world screaming and covered in someone else's blood. I am not afraid to go out of it that way.
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05-11-2013, 11:35 PM
RE: Philosophers! Help me out with a thing!
Sounds kinda like what was discussed here. Hope that helps.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...plications

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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06-11-2013, 06:31 AM
RE: Philosophers! Help me out with a thing!
(05-11-2013 11:17 PM)nooneofconsequence Wrote:  Assuming that there is a being who is all powerful and all knowing (omnipotent and omniscient), does it follow that for s/he to know a thing is to will that thing?

Does that make sense? If so is it logically consistent?

Blink

(No I am not addled with drink or other stupefying substances though probably I should be.)

-- Max

It is the case for humans. Example: Since humans believe that a god exists, the mere belief wills into (constructs) a world structured as if a god exists. This makes the belief in a god more powerful (more influential) than the fact that it doesn't exist.
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06-11-2013, 11:27 PM
RE: Philosophers! Help me out with a thing!
a rose by any other name, would smell as sweet

"A Rose by any other name, would smell as sweet"
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06-11-2013, 11:39 PM
RE: Philosophers! Help me out with a thing!
(05-11-2013 11:17 PM)nooneofconsequence Wrote:  Assuming that there is a being who is all powerful and all knowing (omnipotent and omniscient), does it follow that for s/he to know a thing is to will that thing?

Does that make sense? If so is it logically consistent?

Blink

(No I am not addled with drink or other stupefying substances though probably I should be.)

-- Max

Not necessarily. I think there needs to be a third peice: did they create the environment in which everything they know to happen happens?

If so, then they willed it because they could have created an environment that would have produced different outcomes.

(And, yes, I have been imbibing) Smile

And I told him "that's crazy..." Unsure
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07-11-2013, 12:14 AM
RE: Philosophers! Help me out with a thing!
I think the logical inconsistency in that line of thinking is existence vs concept. I can conceive of all manner of things that don't exist, and I am clearly not god, nor omnipotent in any way. Why would it be that god would be bound by a syllogism that I am not bound to?

Of course one could argue that we don't know whether these things exist in some world or dimension unknown to us. Well sure, but why argue about the logics of unknowable dimensions?

It's pretty much the same reason that this god/no god debate has always existed. The logistics just don't square. Beyond god showing up and putting it to rest, we'll always just be arguing nonsense amongst ourselves.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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07-11-2013, 12:20 AM
RE: Philosophers! Help me out with a thing!
(05-11-2013 11:17 PM)nooneofconsequence Wrote:  Assuming that there is a being who is all powerful and all knowing (omnipotent and omniscient), does it follow that for s/he to know a thing is to will that thing?

That would depend on whether the hypothetical universe in which this supreme person exists is deterministic. If none of the persons that the supreme being created have contra-causal free-will and there is no randomness then the supreme being's knowledge is the same as its will. If it knows X then it would also have willed X because X was necessary, it couldn't have been otherwise.

Quote:Does that make sense?

It does with the additional assumptions I provided. It needs additional assumptions. There will be background assumptions that make it nonsensical.

Quote:If so is it logically consistent?

Yes, if
(i) the persons it created lack contra-causal free-will; and
(ii) the universe it created has no randomness.

Under these conditions its knowledge is entirely consistent with its will, i.e. if it knows X it must have willed X.

If either (i) or (ii) or both don't prevail then there will be a divergence between the supreme being's will and its knowledge. But in the sense that the supreme being decided to create a universe without (i) or (ii) (or neither) then it willed--or at least made it possible--for some things to occur which are against its will.
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11-11-2013, 03:09 PM
RE: Philosophers! Help me out with a thing!
It cannot be proven that beings higher in power and moral convictions do not exist within the Universe. Such could operate in a manner beyond our logic and rational appraisal. Any learning by us, from them, would, in the main be intuitive and experiential.
At the secular level our learning appears to be dependent upon our evolutionary accrued means to reason based on our understanding of sequence,cause, effect, and the observation of such. As for the numinous cosmos and issues pertaining to such scientific analysis seems inappropriaet, and this may be due to its inherent ego and bias relating to anything deemed beyond its scope. At times science has fudged research in order to avoid difficult issues that do not sit well, such as quantum mechanics....

"Lean,keen, and so serene"~~~
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11-11-2013, 03:11 PM
Rainbow RE: Philosophers! Help me out with a thing!
It cannot be proven that beings higher in power and moral convictions do not exist within the Universe. Such could operate in a manner beyond our logic and rational appraisal. Any learning by us, from them, would, in the main be intuitive and experiential.
At the secular level our learning appears to be dependent upon our evolutionary accrued means to reason based on our understanding of sequence,cause, effect, and the observation of such. As for the numinous cosmos and issues pertaining to such scientific analysis seems inappropriate, and this may be due to its inherent ego and bias relating to anything deemed beyond its scope. At times science has fudged research in order to avoid difficult issues that do not sit well, such as quantum mechanics....

"Lean,keen, and so serene"~~~
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11-11-2013, 04:45 PM
Philosophers! Help me out with a thing!
(11-11-2013 03:11 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  It cannot be proven that beings higher in power and moral convictions do not exist within the Universe. Such could operate in a manner beyond our logic and rational appraisal. Any learning by us, from them, would, in the main be intuitive and experiential.
At the secular level our learning appears to be dependent upon our evolutionary accrued means to reason based on our understanding of sequence,cause, effect, and the observation of such. As for the numinous cosmos and issues pertaining to such scientific analysis seems inappropriate, and this may be due to its inherent ego and bias relating to anything deemed beyond its scope. At times science has fudged research in order to avoid difficult issues that do not sit well, such as quantum mechanics....

Why do atheists say that it is illogical to think that there isn't any more intelligent (higher) beings somewhere?

BOOM
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