Philosophers! Help me out with a thing!
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11-11-2013, 04:59 PM
Rainbow RE: Philosophers! Help me out with a thing!
(11-11-2013 04:45 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(11-11-2013 03:11 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  It cannot be proven that beings higher in power and moral convictions do not exist within the Universe. Such could operate in a manner beyond our logic and rational appraisal. Any learning by us, from them, would, in the main be intuitive and experiential.
At the secular level our learning appears to be dependent upon our evolutionary accrued means to reason based on our understanding of sequence,cause, effect, and the observation of such. As for the numinous cosmos and issues pertaining to such scientific analysis seems inappropriate, and this may be due to its inherent ego and bias relating to anything deemed beyond its scope. At times science has fudged research in order to avoid difficult issues that do not sit well, such as quantum mechanics....

Why do atheists say that it is illogical to think that there isn't any more intelligent (higher) beings somewhere?

BOOM

I suppose the issue is seeing ourselves as material products of a once mindless evolution and separate from this possible aspect.
While the human link with the numinous cannot be scientifically explained, I do not think such should be fobbed off because of this.Rolleyes
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12-11-2013, 12:16 AM
Philosophers! Help me out with a thing!
(11-11-2013 04:59 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(11-11-2013 04:45 PM)I and I Wrote:  Why do atheists say that it is illogical to think that there isn't any more intelligent (higher) beings somewhere?

BOOM

I suppose the issue is seeing ourselves as material products of a once mindless evolution and separate from this possible aspect.
While the human link with the numinous cannot be scientifically explained, I do not think such should be fobbed off because of this.Rolleyes

The belief in aliens isn't an atheist position, more agnostic.
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12-11-2013, 12:34 AM
RE: Philosophers! Help me out with a thing!
It could be possible that a god could have not been eternal and was created.

For example, the universe currently exists. If Zeus fathers a god named Dark Light who is omniscient and omnipotent then Dark Light through his power of omniscience knows everything about the universe, but he did not create it.

Your hypothesis is not logically flawed, however it requires additional qualifiers.

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12-11-2013, 12:36 AM
RE: Philosophers! Help me out with a thing!
(12-11-2013 12:16 AM)I and I Wrote:  The belief in aliens isn't an atheist position, more agnostic.

Belief in aliens is unrelated to atheism and agnosticism. It may or may not be unrelated to theism depending on the person's belief about their god.

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12-11-2013, 02:41 AM
Philosophers! Help me out with a thing!
So one can believe in more intelligent beings with ore power that live somewhere in the universe and still be am atheist?

Believing in different from other religions, beings that live in outer space means you are not an atheist, not even agnostic.
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12-11-2013, 06:19 AM
RE: Philosophers! Help me out with a thing!
On the OP:
I tend to agree with HJ in the linked thread that for an omniscient being to know something or imagine something that thing is brought into existence. That's something of the software engineer in me speaking and software engineers have a bad habit of speaking beyond their expertise, but I tend to look at knowledge of what will happen under certain scenarios as a simulation or computability[1] problem. To know the outcome of an arbitrary algorithm we must effectively run that algorithm. For a god to know the outcome of a particular possible universe it must effectively simulate that algorithm. That simulation may just be going on in the entity's mind but it is surely a simulation nonetheless and the experience of any particular entity operating within the simulation must be part of the simulation process.

So I agree with the premise of that thread, that the idea of an omniscient being has horrifying consequences if true or else could be logically impossible a priori due to computability limitations.

On aliens: It seems unlikely that our emergence here on this planet by chance also happens to correspond to the probability that either we are the only place this occurred or that we are the furthest ahead in our development as a species. Surely among the billions of earth-like planets out there this has all happened in such a manner as to "get there" before us. That said, there is no guarantee any species has or ever will be able to effectively transit between the stars.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computability

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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12-11-2013, 01:23 PM
RE: Philosophers! Help me out with a thing!
(12-11-2013 02:41 AM)I and I Wrote:  So one can believe in more intelligent beings with ore power that live somewhere in the universe and still be am atheist?

Believing in different from other religions, beings that live in outer space means you are not an atheist, not even agnostic.

Yes. I'm not sure what ore-power is, presumably the ability to collect ore, perhaps even make ore, but whatever the case, yes. I can believe in intelligent aliens who I do no identify as gods and retain the label 'atheist'.

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