Photo of cop praying with a woman
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12-07-2016, 11:18 PM
RE: Photo of cop praying with a woman
(12-07-2016 10:55 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(12-07-2016 10:34 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  He is a government official, actually, and this was a traffic stop. He is on duty, therefore taxpayer money is paying him to do his job at that moment, meaning he should not be performing any religious act.

Should we garnish is wages for the few minutes of prayer?

Unless he forced someone to pray the establishment clause doesn't apply because while he's a cop, he's not endorsing a religion or forcing people to pray. Now if he said pray with me, and I won't give you a ticket, then you might be able to make a case for promotion of religion. But how do you know it was even his idea? What if she wanted to pray and he joined her?

He also is also guaranteed the freedom of religion also. The government cannot establish their own religion and they can't prevent others from practicing their religion.

Even when POTUS says 'god bless America' as much as I cringe... It's not illegal or a violation of the establishment clause.

Hmmm, not sure I entirely agree here. Saying god bless America at the end of a speech is not the same as actively praying when you are supposed to be upholding the law. You are guaranteed freedom of religion on your own time, not while my tax dollars are paying your salary. I find it hard to believe that praying on duty in public as a government agent won't ruffle some feathers in other government professions. When the president attends a vigil or funeral, he is part of the event and it's in context. But when an official is performing his/her government duties, there should be no religion. The Establishment Clause isn't just about "forcing" religion on you. There's an implied wall that you don't scale when church and state are involved.

Otherwise, why are public schools not allowed to pray? No one is forcing children to pray, but if the teacher mentioned anything religious they would be fired. That teacher has the freedom of religion, but he can't say a Hail Mary before attendance.

Something is amiss here. If the cop said, "I see you're hurting, what can I do?" And she said, "Would you pray with me?" He should say, well, I can't pray, but I can stand here and be silent while you pray. But if he is actively praying then something isn't right. It's one thing to protect and serve, but it's another when your beliefs interfere. If she were Muslim and wanted to kneel and face Mecca with him, would he be so inclined to let her off with a warning, or because she was Christian did he pray and not give her a ticket? That is preferential treatment.

How quickly people forget the cops that pull you over and ask if you've found Jesus and the outrage, yet because of the current temperature of our country now this prayer moment is ok?

Like I said, there seems to be a double standard or something.

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12-07-2016, 11:20 PM
RE: Photo of cop praying with a woman
At least he isn't shooting her.

I wish I had problems like this.

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12-07-2016, 11:24 PM
RE: Photo of cop praying with a woman
(12-07-2016 11:20 PM)Banjo Wrote:  At least he isn't shooting her.

I wish I had problems like this.

Yeah, it's not like I lack perspective, I'm just asking a question and trying to understand the First Amedment a little more.

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12-07-2016, 11:27 PM
RE: Photo of cop praying with a woman
(12-07-2016 11:24 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  
(12-07-2016 11:20 PM)Banjo Wrote:  At least he isn't shooting her.

I wish I had problems like this.

Yeah, it's not like I lack perspective, I'm just asking a question and trying to understand the First Amedment a little more.

I'm still trying to work out the second amendment. HoboSadcryfaceBlink

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12-07-2016, 11:34 PM
RE: Photo of cop praying with a woman
(12-07-2016 11:27 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(12-07-2016 11:24 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Yeah, it's not like I lack perspective, I'm just asking a question and trying to understand the First Amedment a little more.

I'm still trying to work out the second amendment. HoboSadcryfaceBlink

That one is about #BlackLivesMatter being allowed the right to form a well-regulated militia to protect themselves against the evil oligarchy and its trigger-happy paramilitary.

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12-07-2016, 11:36 PM
RE: Photo of cop praying with a woman
(12-07-2016 11:34 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(12-07-2016 11:27 PM)Banjo Wrote:  I'm still trying to work out the second amendment. HoboSadcryfaceBlink

That one is about #BlackLivesMatter being allowed the right to form a well-regulated militia to protect themselves against the evil oligarchy and its trigger-happy paramilitary.

Angel

Ah I see. Big Grin

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12-07-2016, 11:44 PM (This post was last modified: 13-07-2016 01:07 AM by Momsurroundedbyboys.)
RE: Photo of cop praying with a woman
(12-07-2016 11:18 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  
(12-07-2016 10:55 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Should we garnish is wages for the few minutes of prayer?

Unless he forced someone to pray the establishment clause doesn't apply because while he's a cop, he's not endorsing a religion or forcing people to pray. Now if he said pray with me, and I won't give you a ticket, then you might be able to make a case for promotion of religion. But how do you know it was even his idea? What if she wanted to pray and he joined her?

He also is also guaranteed the freedom of religion also. The government cannot establish their own religion and they can't prevent others from practicing their religion.

Even when POTUS says 'god bless America' as much as I cringe... It's not illegal or a violation of the establishment clause.

Hmmm, not sure I entirely agree here. Saying god bless America at the end of a speech is not the same as actively praying when you are supposed to be upholding the law. You are guaranteed freedom of religion on your own time, not while my tax dollars are paying your salary. I find it hard to believe that praying on duty in public as a government agent won't ruffle some feathers in other government professions. When the president attends a vigil or funeral, he is part of the event and it's in context. But when an official is performing his/her government duties, there should be no religion. The Establishment Clause isn't just about "forcing" religion on you. There's an implied wall that you don't scale when church and state are involved.

Otherwise, why are public schools not allowed to pray? No one is forcing children to pray, but if the teacher mentioned anything religious they would be fired. That teacher has the freedom of religion, but he can't say a Hail Mary before attendance.

Something is amiss here. If the cop said, "I see you're hurting, what can I do?" And she said, "Would you pray with me?" He should say, well, I can't pray, but I can stand here and be silent while you pray. But if he is actively praying then something isn't right. It's one thing to protect and serve, but it's another when your beliefs interfere. If she were Muslim and wanted to kneel and face Mecca with him, would he be so inclined to let her off with a warning, or because she was Christian did he pray and not give her a ticket? That is preferential treatment.

How quickly people forget the cops that pull you over and ask if you've found Jesus and the outrage, yet because of the current temperature of our country now this prayer moment is ok?

Like I said, there seems to be a double standard or something.

I can't tell from the photo if he's praying or just listening to her and holding her hands. Her mouth is open as though speaking. You're also assuming that he somehow instigated it. I've just seen the photo, so I have no idea what actually happened. I'm happy to accept it as an act of kindness.

Student led prayer is allowed in schools.

Also the bible can discussed and even studied in an English or history class -- in world history we studied King James and the Roman Catholic Church. Along with Greek and Roman myths -- to understand history often you can't ignore religion.

In pyschology class in high school we discussed cult religions -- yeah Mormonism was heavily discussed. All these years and it still makes me giggle.

Edited to add:

In 4th grade we toured several California missions too and each time a friar, nun or once even a priest led the tour.

[Image: San_Francisco_de_Asis--Mission_Dolores.JPG]


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13-07-2016, 07:37 AM
RE: Photo of cop praying with a woman
Yeah, the photo of the cop isn't really germane to the overall wonderment about the situation. I'm just curious if on-duty cops are allowed to do that. How is this any different than the FFRF suing to get bible verses taken off the back of squad cars? Meh, I don't know, I just thought it wasn't allowed.

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13-07-2016, 12:21 PM (This post was last modified: 13-07-2016 12:26 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Photo of cop praying with a woman
(12-07-2016 10:34 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  He is a government official, actually, and this was a traffic stop. He is on duty, therefore taxpayer money is paying him to do his job at that moment, meaning he should not be performing any religious act.

This is not true. As a federal employee I can pray anytime I want even while on duty as long as it is not interfering with my job. If you would like to do it in private we have a prayer room which even has an Islamic prayer rug in it carefully calibrated to face mecca. (Hey we're a bunch of S&E's we have OCD on getting it right.) Technically it should be done on your own time but since the resolution of our time cards is 15 minute increments if it takes less than that there is no official way to record it and nobody gives a shit anyway. We can even display religious material on our desk like the Bible, the Quran, or in my case BuddyChrist's Atheist's Guide to the Bible.

What we cannot do is proselytize. If the woman asked the cop to pray with her and he does to deescalate a situation he did nothing wrong and everything right. If he asked her to pray then he would be in violation.

(13-07-2016 07:37 AM)WillHopp Wrote:  Yeah, the photo of the cop isn't really germane to the overall wonderment about the situation. I'm just curious if on-duty cops are allowed to do that. How is this any different than the FFRF suing to get bible verses taken off the back of squad cars? Meh, I don't know, I just thought it wasn't allowed.

In the case of bible verses on squad cars that is not an individual expressing their beliefs it is the State proselytizing which is a clear violation.

#sigh
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13-07-2016, 12:41 PM
RE: Photo of cop praying with a woman
(13-07-2016 12:21 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(12-07-2016 10:34 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  He is a government official, actually, and this was a traffic stop. He is on duty, therefore taxpayer money is paying him to do his job at that moment, meaning he should not be performing any religious act.

This is not true. As a federal employee I can pray anytime I want even while on duty as long as it is not interfering with my job. If you would like to do it in private we have a prayer room which even has an Islamic prayer rug in it carefully calibrated to face mecca. (Hey we're a bunch of S&E's we have OCD on getting it right.) Technically it should be done on your own time but since the resolution of our time cards is 15 minute increments if it takes less than that there is no official way to record it and nobody gives a shit anyway. We can even display religious material on our desk like the Bible, the Quran, or in my case BuddyChrist's Atheist's Guide to the Bible.

What we cannot do is proselytize. If the woman asked the cop to pray with her and he does to deescalate a situation he did nothing wrong and everything right. If he asked her to pray then he would be in violation.

(13-07-2016 07:37 AM)WillHopp Wrote:  Yeah, the photo of the cop isn't really germane to the overall wonderment about the situation. I'm just curious if on-duty cops are allowed to do that. How is this any different than the FFRF suing to get bible verses taken off the back of squad cars? Meh, I don't know, I just thought it wasn't allowed.

In the case of bible verses on squad cars that is not an individual expressing their beliefs it is the State proselytizing which is a clear violation.

OK, so if the cop initiated it then it's wrong, but if someone else initiates it, it's all right. Hmmm, ok. I guess I would argue this was interfering with him doing his job, but that could just be nitty. Thanks Girly.

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