Pictures for a Laugh at Atheism
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02-11-2016, 12:55 PM
RE: Pictures for a Laugh at Atheism
'RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:4) If you're going to attempt the Stalin-and-Hitler-were-atheists argument, make sure you've read at LEAST one good, scholarly history book on the subject (that is, one that did not come from your church) and are prepared to make a nuanced argument... because just telling us that "some atheist did a bad thing" isn't going to mean any more to us than telling you that the Crusaders who slaughtered entire cities of women and children were Christians means to you. Just as there are vastly different styles of religious person, there are vastly different styles of irreligious person. Learn.

It's done to death I know but nuance only comes into play when we are talking about Stalin. Hitler was not atheist. Stalin probably didn't believed in god but marxism-leninism was his faith. So he was another believer and trying to blame lack of belief for his crimes is simply idiotic and dishonest.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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02-11-2016, 01:28 PM
RE: Pictures for a Laugh at Atheism
(02-11-2016 11:43 AM)Commonsensei Wrote:  [Image: Lo3Taj.gif]

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03-11-2016, 02:45 AM
RE: Pictures for a Laugh at Atheism
(02-11-2016 12:55 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
'RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:4) If you're going to attempt the Stalin-and-Hitler-were-atheists argument, make sure you've read at LEAST one good, scholarly history book on the subject (that is, one that did not come from your church) and are prepared to make a nuanced argument... because just telling us that "some atheist did a bad thing" isn't going to mean any more to us than telling you that the Crusaders who slaughtered entire cities of women and children were Christians means to you. Just as there are vastly different styles of religious person, there are vastly different styles of irreligious person. Learn.

It's done to death I know but nuance only comes into play when we are talking about Stalin. Hitler was not atheist. Stalin probably didn't believed in god but marxism-leninism was his faith. So he was another believer and trying to blame lack of belief for his crimes is simply idiotic and dishonest.

Indeed. We've hashed this out a few times, which is why I left it as simple as I could, above... it's an introduction concept for people from Alabama who want to come in here and tell us that we really are all the things they've been told about us, all their lives. (Fear those Evil Atheists who Oppose the Truth and Our Way of Life! They're not like Us, for We are the Good People!! So you must FEAR THEM!!!)

I just hold out hope that, despite the lifetime of anti-nonbeliever propaganda to which they are subjected, that we can find an approach that helps them see that 1) history is typically more complicated than pundits of any sort, including preachers, would have you believe, and 2) if they actually listen and learn, they'll find out we are not really like the people they've been told we are.

Well, except for Whiskey and EK, of course. Tongue

But in all seriousness, the purpose of a forum like this is to kick ideas around, to share what we know and to learn new things from others (and well-cited sources, of course).

It truly blows my mind how many people come here seemingly for the purpose of listing, for the world to see, all the things about which they have been fed some awful misinformation... and to watch them persist in their delusions even in the face of links to the scholarly works that disprove them.

There are a few issues that, despite all the scholarly work that has been done in that field, there remains plenty of wiggle-room for people to hold contrary or dissenting opinions. But that's almost never what we see; instead, we're flooded with a litany of utter bullshit that was passed from Preacher to Believer.

I guess at that point I just hope that some of our observers will be neutral enough to realize that it's the Christian who's lying, not the atheists he's calling inherent liars (or whatever other names are on today's list). An example of what I hoped would occur went down with the pictures, in this thread, as I posted stuff that makes fun of atheists and some of our prominent ideas/personalities... and instead, this hate-filled douchebag posts nothing but slander propaganda.

When we post anti-religion memes, it's usually because there's a grain of truth to it, which makes it funny, or at least darkly amusing... even to an honest Believer. (The Babylon Bee, a Christian version of The Onion, has made a niche for itself in that sort of self-mockery. And kudos to them for that!)

What he posted was just being mean for meanness' sake.

I can never understand what makes people so hateful... especially when the hate-filled person is calling me the hateful one. I hate actions, not people, but with the awareness that belief informs our actions, so I must criticize beliefs I think are destructive to people, such as the belief that their beliefs cannot be criticized or mocked.

*sigh*

Sorry I've waxed so long-winded. Just a lot I'm trying to figure out. This guy was a sock of a hateful poster with whom we've already had to wrestle... but I want to try to understand how such people can even exist, and how they can reconcile a claim to be a good person and follower of the Prince of Peace while slinging this kind of vitriol. Yeah, this guy is gone... but how long until the next one? Tomorrow? Next week? Tomorrow? Perhaps tomorrow?

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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03-11-2016, 03:25 AM
RE: Pictures for a Laugh at Atheism
(03-11-2016 02:45 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I just hold out hope that, despite the lifetime of anti-nonbeliever propaganda to which they are subjected, that we can find an approach that helps them see that 1) history is typically more complicated than pundits of any sort, including preachers, would have you believe, and 2) if they actually listen and learn, they'll find out we are not really like the people they've been told we are.

Well, except for Whiskey and EK, of course. Tongue


Someone needs to keep the stereotype alive. Some of you fucking light weights are too damn sociable and shit. Dodgy


Also, who does this banned asshole think he is? Trying to steal my thunder.

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03-11-2016, 05:22 AM
RE: Pictures for a Laugh at Atheism
(03-11-2016 02:45 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I can never understand what makes people so hateful... especially when the hate-filled person is calling me the hateful one.

The projection was strong in this one. He was far too blinded by rage to have any sort of meaningful communication.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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03-11-2016, 05:25 AM
RE: Pictures for a Laugh at Atheism
(03-11-2016 02:45 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  ...
but I want to try to understand how such people can even exist,
...
but how long until the next one? Tomorrow? Next week? Tomorrow? Perhaps tomorrow?

For your requested edification, soon, I hope.

Smile

But you're going to have to strike a deal with everyone else to refrain from calling for the banhammer (or goading the 'such people' into behaviour that irritates a pre-caffeinated Admin) at least until you have the chance to find out.

Good luck with that.

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03-11-2016, 05:34 AM
RE: Pictures for a Laugh at Atheism
So far I've really only seen calls for the Banhammer if someone is clearly (or highly-suspiciously) a sock of a previously-banned poster, if they step over a fairly bright line into trying to justify horrifying things (like pedophilia and/or rape), or if they are so full of hate that they are obviously here for no other purpose than to preach/spam us with propaganda (and not answer our replies in order to create a dialogue) or try to do harm to anyone here that they can.

I think that's a fairly--as in "it is fair"--narrow range of reasons to ban someone.

In my opinion, the fact that SO MANY of the fundies we get here seem to walk the line reflects upon them, not upon us.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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03-11-2016, 05:38 AM
RE: Pictures for a Laugh at Atheism
(03-11-2016 05:25 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(03-11-2016 02:45 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  ...
but I want to try to understand how such people can even exist,
...
but how long until the next one? Tomorrow? Next week? Tomorrow? Perhaps tomorrow?

For your requested edification, soon, I hope.

Smile

But you're going to have to strike a deal with everyone else to refrain from calling for the banhammer (or goading the 'such people' into behaviour that irritates a pre-caffeinated Admin) at least until you have the chance to find out.

Good luck with that.

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03-11-2016, 05:59 AM
RE: Pictures for a Laugh at Atheism
@RocketSurgeon

Issues which remain might be to complicated for average person to discuss, not to mention not really interesting. Take the Great Hunger in USSR for example - debate if it was deliberate or not is still in progress. But without good understanding of stalinist policy and modern context (in Poland and Ukraine USSR is vilified*) one can only fall on cliches about bad atheo-communists or price not mattering when progress is at stake. On the other hand accusation of atheists being to blame for marxism-leninism crime is easy to make and serves as good rhetorical hammer and this is why theists often resort to it.

As for persisting in delusion it is not easy to shake them, especially when you can easily find info supporting them, vide atheist atrocities. Works debunking such are hard pieces - Rafał Imos "Belief of the Soviet Man" is far from easy read, just like Raymond Aron "Opium of the Intelectuals" or Czesław Miłosz "Enslaved Mind". So staying in delusion is easy, leaving it require work and not everyone is willing to do it.

Would like to write more but I gotta going back to work.

*Recently I read book called "Polish visions and notes on Communism after 1939". Despite being quite insightful at times it is biassed, just like authors couldn't grasp that Tsarist Russia wasn't paradise and bolsheviks had real support (if only for a time). Orlando Figes showed tragedy, hope and monstrous greatness of revolution (coup fits better I think) better, vithout resorting to cliches. But he didn't lived behind wrong side of Iron Curtain, so more objective approach does not surprise me - population subjected to one brand of propaganda does not become immune to other.

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The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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03-11-2016, 01:02 PM
RE: Pictures for a Laugh at Atheism
(03-11-2016 02:45 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 12:55 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  It's done to death I know but nuance only comes into play when we are talking about Stalin. Hitler was not atheist. Stalin probably didn't believed in god but marxism-leninism was his faith. So he was another believer and trying to blame lack of belief for his crimes is simply idiotic and dishonest.
I just hold out hope that, despite the lifetime of anti-nonbeliever propaganda to which they are subjected, that we can find an approach that helps them see that 1) history is typically more complicated than pundits of any sort, including preachers, would have you believe


It certainly is. Take Hitler for example: despite his deeds I sometimes still hear people praising him. In Poland :Facepalm:. Anti-semitism isn't thing of the past I guess.
There is also matter of Hitler as a person - Kershaw sees him as kind of non-entity defined by his emptiness and hate and seems to be reluctant to write something positive about him. Ulrich Volker humanizes him and I would say that it is better approach, as he was man like any other, just with broken moral compass to say it mildly. There was nothing inhuman in his doing, nothing diabolic. He is just example of humanity at its worst; there is no need for vilify Hitler, his deeds speak for themselves.

There is deeper problem of which Hitler is a syndrome. It's not up to historian to condemn or play on emotions, but it happens too often I would say. It's easy to condemn (rightly) but it is explanation that matters. Writing how evil was Stalin and describing cruel deaths in GULag explains nothing, if one won't write what caused his popularity or masses faith in him. Calling Stalin criminal (Jorg Baberowski) might be right, but history isn't about moral outrage.

Worst syndrome of such writing is Goldhagen and his "Hitler's Willing Executioners" which is only hammer to beat Germans into guilt. It lacks the explanatory power, but for those seeking easy answers is good. On the other hand Snyder "Stalin and Europe" discard ideology and in attempt to understand and explain fail to notice that some things cannot be explained without taking ideological madness into account.

Same issue exist with Poles and communism - objective books aren't easy to find and thanks to this many Poles seem to think that Poland under former regime was some non-country where only traitors lived.



Quote:I guess at that point I just hope that some of our observers will be neutral enough to realize that it's the Christian who's lying, not the atheists he's calling inherent liars (or whatever other names are on today's list). An example of what I hoped would occur went down with the pictures, in this thread, as I posted stuff that makes fun of atheists and some of our prominent ideas/personalities... and instead, this hate-filled douchebag posts nothing but slander propaganda.


I don't have much faith Wink in ability to notice the obvious among general population. Also atheists by mere existence threaten theists fairy tale for they show that not everyone must worship some made up space wizard.


Quote: I can never understand what makes people so hateful...

Life I guess. There is much that can lead to being bitter and spiteful and atheists are easy target when bitterness needs outlet. I kinda understand it as I'm not really nice person.

Quote: I hate actions, not people, but with the awareness that belief informs our actions, so I must criticize beliefs I think are destructive to people, such as the belief that their beliefs cannot be criticized or mocked.


In this I'm a lesser man for I often hate sinner and not sin. I have only contempt for nationalist shitheads for what they are doing with country I live in. I'm also not fond of theists as their want to impose their primitive taboos onto others make scream (not really) with frustration.


Quote: Sorry I've waxed so long-winded. Just a lot I'm trying to figure out. This guy was a sock of a hateful poster with whom we've already had to wrestle... but I want to try to understand how such people can even exist, and how they can reconcile a claim to be a good person and follower of the Prince of Peace while slinging this kind of vitrol.

No problem, it was interesting to read. As for reconciling they may see it as try to save our souls, or more likely they cherry pick.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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