Piracy? What's Your Opinion?
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23-08-2013, 08:29 AM
RE: Piracy? What's Your Opinion?
That modern copyright terms are far too long, that's what annoys me. Life + 70 years is a perverse joke. Well, at least it's still life + 50 years here ( Rolleyes ), for the time being. Term of patents is 20 years, as a comparison...

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23-08-2013, 08:31 AM
RE: Piracy? What's Your Opinion?
(23-08-2013 08:23 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-08-2013 08:10 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  That's the point of this thread, though. Copyrights don't mean shit because of the internet.

That's why I have to side with Lars in the napster argument, even though I hate the asshole.

Copyright means what it has always meant. Are you confusing access/reproducibility with legality/enforcement?

Casual use of images is vastly easier with the internet, but that's pretty much Fair Use, and legal.

Use of copyrighted material for financial gain is still actionable and the thieves are made to pay damages.

Hmmmmmm....

You have a point and that's why I don't like you. Dodgy

I guess where I'm coming from is personal experience. I'm guilty of piracy, and while I do it, I do feel it's wrong. I've enjoyed countless hours of entertainment from artists who spend their lives doing what they do so that I may enjoy it, I take advantage of what they do and don't give any compensation.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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23-08-2013, 08:38 AM
RE: Piracy? What's Your Opinion?
It seems to me there are multiple discussions/viewpoints that are being confused or conflated in this thread.
  • Is downloading copyrighted material for personal use right or wrong?
  • Are the business models in the music industry wrong/predatory/immoral?
  • Does everyone have a right to have whatever they want? i.e. there should be not patents or copyrights.
  • Are the copyright/patent laws, as currently written, unfair?

And variations on those themes.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-08-2013, 08:45 AM
RE: Piracy? What's Your Opinion?
(23-08-2013 08:38 AM)Chas Wrote:  It seems to me there are multiple discussions/viewpoints that are being confused or conflated in this thread.
  • Is downloading copyrighted material for personal use right or wrong?
  • Are the business models in the music industry wrong/predatory/immoral?
  • Does everyone have a right to have whatever they want? i.e. there should be not patents or copyrights.
  • Are the copyright/patent laws, as currently written, unfair?

And variations on those themes.

Guilty as charged, but every point listed is part of the discussion.

edit to clarify:

My argument is focused on the music industry. When it comes to movies, I feel that all parties are pretty much overcompensated to begin with, so it's not such an issue with me.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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23-08-2013, 08:54 AM
RE: Piracy? What's Your Opinion?
I believe that if you really enjoy something and want more like it you should pay for it. I don't mean paying for every little game you play, song you download, or movie you watch. I mean I'll play a game like Call of Duty only once, and it doesn't feel worth the $60 + tax. It was fun, once, but not worth the money. But a game like Europa Universalis? I love it, play it for years, and feel it is definitely worth the money. If no more CoDs were made again I wouldn't care, but if Paradox Interactive disappeared I'd cry.

While I wouldn't pay for music, I'd buy merchandise and go to concerts, and that provides more money to the musicians than mp3s anyway. I see movies that appear worthwhile, because nothing beats the experience of going to a theatre with good friends. And I buy games that I really like and want more of.

I support what I love so there will be more of it. Ideally, the whole world would run on that model, but most people are not honorabu.

If something can be destroyed by the truth, it might be worth destroying.

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23-08-2013, 09:00 AM
RE: Piracy? What's Your Opinion?
(23-08-2013 08:54 AM)Elesjei Wrote:  ill be more of it. Ideally, the whole world would run on that model, but most people are not honorabu.

This, I feel is the point of the argument. For a simple answer, while perhaps not a big deal on a case by case examination, overall piracy is unethical and dishonorabu.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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23-08-2013, 01:42 PM
RE: Piracy? What's Your Opinion?
It's not theft, even if it's considered illegal and morally wrong, is not theft. It may sound like a technicality but it's important, not every violation to property is theft and not realising that only confuses everything and ruins the debate.

It's copyright infringement. It's usually conceptually closer to fraud than theft.

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23-08-2013, 01:45 PM
RE: Piracy? What's Your Opinion?
(23-08-2013 01:42 PM)nach_in Wrote:  It's not theft, even if it's considered illegal and morally wrong, is not theft. It may sound like a technicality but it's important, not every violation to property is theft and not realising that only confuses everything and ruins the debate.

It's copyright infringement. It's usually conceptually closer to fraud than theft.

Semantics.....

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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23-08-2013, 02:07 PM
RE: Piracy? What's Your Opinion?
(23-08-2013 01:45 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(23-08-2013 01:42 PM)nach_in Wrote:  It's not theft, even if it's considered illegal and morally wrong, is not theft. It may sound like a technicality but it's important, not every violation to property is theft and not realising that only confuses everything and ruins the debate.

It's copyright infringement. It's usually conceptually closer to fraud than theft.

Semantics.....

No it's not just semantics, is a discussion about what is protected and why, theft protects scarce goods because of that scarcity and because the effort to obtain the goods is too much to leave it unprotected.
Copyright protects the copies of a work of art or science to encourage people to keep doing it. The effort is a lot too and should be protected, but the goods are not scarce, a book can be read and copied almost infinitely and nothing is lost. The way property is violated is completely different and it has different effects and different rights are in play.

Our current economic system makes abundant things free, and that's the issue:
How can we guarantee income to those who make the effort of making art and science without limiting access to that work to anyone else?

That's why business models and laws are wrong, because they create an artificial scarcity of something that is abundant so it can be charged. I'm not against artist and scientists to get paid for their work, that'd be absurd. I'm also not against people having access to art and education for free or as cheaply as possible, that also would be absurd...
For now we have a broken system, piracy is an escape valve for the abuses of the industry, and ever more restrictive laws are the reaction for the abusers of piracy... It's an equilibrium but it's unstable and it generates too much collateral damage (artist that can't make a dime, people who can't read a book, etc). But only a handful of people seem to be trying to find a better way to make things. And confusing the words and their meanings doesn't help.

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23-08-2013, 02:42 PM
RE: Piracy? What's Your Opinion?
(23-08-2013 02:07 PM)nach_in Wrote:  
(23-08-2013 01:45 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Semantics.....

No it's not just semantics, is a discussion about what is protected and why, theft protects scarce goods because of that scarcity and because the effort to obtain the goods is too much to leave it unprotected.
Copyright protects the copies of a work of art or science to encourage people to keep doing it. The effort is a lot too and should be protected, but the goods are not scarce, a book can be read and copied almost infinitely and nothing is lost. The way property is violated is completely different and it has different effects and different rights are in play.

Our current economic system makes abundant things free, and that's the issue:
How can we guarantee income to those who make the effort of making art and science without limiting access to that work to anyone else?

That's why business models and laws are wrong, because they create an artificial scarcity of something that is abundant so it can be charged. I'm not against artist and scientists to get paid for their work, that'd be absurd. I'm also not against people having access to art and education for free or as cheaply as possible, that also would be absurd...
For now we have a broken system, piracy is an escape valve for the abuses of the industry, and ever more restrictive laws are the reaction for the abusers of piracy... It's an equilibrium but it's unstable and it generates too much collateral damage (artist that can't make a dime, people who can't read a book, etc). But only a handful of people seem to be trying to find a better way to make things. And confusing the words and their meanings doesn't help.

Well said and agreed. Didn't mean to try to confuse the issue, I just say what comes to mind. Sometimes my mind isn't as well spoken. Sorry.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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