Plants Could Totally Have Survived Noah's Flood Guize!
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15-09-2013, 07:07 PM
Plants Could Totally Have Survived Noah's Flood Guize!
More AiG idiocy.

Quote:Elementary logic, my dear water lily

How could any plants or seeds survive in water for an entire year? What did the plant-eating animals eat after getting off the Ark? These questions are often asked both by skeptics of the Bible and Christians alike. Unfortunately, this sometimes causes believers to doubt God’s Word and accept man’s ideas. As we will see in this article, ways in which plants and seeds survived being water-logged are straightforward and numerous. It will also be worth noting some misunderstandings about what the Bible actually tells us about the duration of the many stages of the Flood.

First, we know God’s Word is true and there was a global Flood. Knowing the Flood happened, and in light of the fact that we have plants today, the important question is: in what ways did the plants and seeds survive the Flood? The logical argument for the fact that plants survived the Flood is actually quite simple.

The Bible states there was a worldwide Flood.
We see plants today.
Therefore plants survived the Flood.

You basically told Logic,Science,and non-Circular reasoning to go fuck themselves in three sentences. Good job.

Quote:Someone’s poorly researched and unsubstantiated claims should not be cause for doubt, but this does not mean that when people ask these questions they should be dismissed immediately. The real issue is a matter of the heart, and so the proper answer needs to be given in a loving manner

Read, total unsubstantiated bullshit.


Quote:Tiiiiiiiiiime . . . is on our side

According to the Flood timeline, it is worth noting that the earth was not completely covered for the entire Flood year. The longest possible amount of time that seeds/plants would have been in or under water, without any contact with land, is 278 days (about nine months and one week).

Oh, well that's much better.

Quote: We see from Scripture that the opening of the fountains of the great deep and the windows of heaven were the beginning of the Flood, and that the first indication of plant life returning is the olive leaf that was brought back by the dove (Genesis 8:10–11). More details about the Flood timeline can be seen in Table 1 and Figure 1. So instead of seeds or plants needing to survive for an entire year under water, they would have only had to endure water for a maximum of just over nine months. The period of time was possibly shorter (see table and figure below) since it would have taken many weeks for the entire earth to be covered (including the high hills and mountains)

It Took 40 days, and that was to cover the very highest mountains, the low-lying areas would have been covered long before that.

Quote:, and then some land would have been present long enough for the olive plant to have grown and produced leaves.
So this time span could probably be shortened to six or seven months.

No.

Quote:
Feelin’ salty?!


Something else to be addressed is the ocean’s salinity. Current estimates put it at an average of 35 ppt (parts per thousand; i.e., 35 grams of salt per 1,000 grams of water), whereas freshwater is less then 0.5 ppt. Skeptics assume that it has taken millions and billions of years for the ocean to become this salty based on current rates. They presume the current salinity to be about the same as at the time of the Flood, since it happened around 4,400 years ago. But this is an unfounded assumption as Dr. Russell Humphreys has pointed out,

Every year, rivers and other sources dump over 450 million tons of sodium into the ocean. Only 27% of this sodium manages to get back out of the sea each year. As far as anyone knows, the remainder simply accumulates in the ocean. If the sea had no sodium to start with, it would have accumulated its present amount in less than 42 million years at today’s input and output rates. This is much less than the evolutionary age of the ocean, three billion years (emphasis original).2


There is more than one feasible scenario for the salinity of the ocean, but what follows is the most likely. First, it is possible that the water had salinity similar to that of freshwater before the Flood. Second, it is possible there was a lower salt concentration, similar to brackish water (0.5-30 ppt), during most of the Flood, and that the current salinity is a result of floodwater runoff from the continents, volcanism, and current deposition from rain and rivers. It is not likely the salinity was roughly the same during the inundation stages of the Flood as it is now. But even if it was, it would still not have been a problem for plants to survive. The main point is that skeptics cannot arbitrarily assume the floodwater salinity, since they were not there to measure it. Remember, the ultimate goal of most skeptics is to undermine the Scriptures. So the possibility is left open that the salinity of the floodwaters could have been much less than the ocean’s current salinity.

This argument basically amounts to, Hey,the oceans could've been less salty back then, how do you know? Were you there?.



Quote:
Survivor! Plant style



Another assumption skeptics make is that the species we have today are the same as at the time of the Flood. Though some species were probably around then, like the Wollemi Pine, it is safe to assume that most species around today are not exactly the same as what was around before the Flood 4,400 years ago

The evidence for this being...Fuck you, there's your evidence.

Quote:. Why is this significant?

One big reason is that plants today have undergone 4,400 years of speciation, mutations, and genetic deterioration. This must mean some of the genetic information has been lost.

Enough to change them into totally different species?

Quote: Although many would consider species today to be as delicate as species 4,400 years ago, the fact is that those same species could have been more genetically and physically robust, and thus better able to withstand extreme conditions than modern plants, including up to nine months immersed in or floating on open floodwaters!

Here we go again, could've been, maybe, no actual evidence, just more baseless assumptions.





Quote:Skeptics have a tendency to ignore the fact there are tree and plant species that actually thrive in flood-like conditions or even saltwater. For example, mangroves live primarily along tropical coastlines.

Yeah, and some people can win an Olympic race, doesn't mean we all can.

Quote: Not to mention the flowering plants and trees that flourish in swamplands. Some trees that live in swamplands include (but are not limited to) the white cedar, eastern hemlock, loblolly pine, black spruce, red maple, elm, pin oak, and birch. Knowing that some trees withstand saturating water conditions makes it difficult to say “plants could not have survived the Flood” because those trees are literally thriving in such conditions. Of course, the real issue behind this question is a matter of authority—God’s perfect Word or man’s fallible ideas.

No, the real issue is a matter of evidence, of which you have none.

Quote:Oh let me count the ways . . .

We know for certain that plants and seeds did survive the Flood; however, we don’t know exactly all the ways they survived. Not knowing how each survived does not mean they did not or could not. So let’s consider several hypothetical possibilities for plants and seeds survival during the Flood. Many of these possibilities have been documented. For instance, even though Darwin is often synonymous with molecules-to-man evolution, he was a very astute, observational scientist, even though he did not have a biology degree. Both he and George F. Howe (separately) performed experiments to determine whether seeds could survive being soaked in saltwater and how they could be transported over long distances by water. So even the studies of the father of seed-to-simian evolution have provided insight into how some plants and seeds could have survived during the Flood.

The Bible indicates that as the Flood waters receded, plants had already started regrowing; evidenced by the dove that returned with an olive leaf (Genesis 8:10–11). This happened at approximately Day 278 of the Flood event; 128 days after the Ark came to rest on one of the mountains of Ararat; giving plenty of time for plants to start taking root and regrow. Howe discovered that even after 140 days of soaking, the seeds of wild flowering plant types were still viable enough to germinate.3,4

Oh that's totally enough time to repair all the devastated ecosystems, it's not like that'll take decades at best or anything.

Quote:Another way plants would have survived is that they were taken onto the Ark as food for Noah, his family, and the animals (Genesis 6:21). Some of these plants could have been the cereal plants Howe found were unable to survive a long time immersed in water. Some of these were replanted by Noah and his family after the Flood since we are specifically told he planted a vineyard (Genesis 9:20).

We all know the affinity ancient Semitic merchants had for eucalyptus.Tongue

Quote: After leaving the Ark any seeds the animals ingested during their final days on the Ark could have passed through and then left on the ground in the animals’ excrement.

Many plants and seeds could have survived on vegetation-mats of floating debris.5 Floating vegetation could have contained many uprooted trees and other plants that could have survived and then regrown once the Floodwaters receded (think, for example, water sprouts). The olive and many other trees and plants are propagated, even today, by asexual budding from planted cuttings. So some seeds could have survived in this debris and their root systems just as Charles Darwin observed, “. . . out of one small portion of the earth thus completely enclosed in by the roots of an oak about 50 years old, three dicotyledonous plants germinated. . . .”6

Many herbivorous animals died in the Flood and their carcasses could have floated as carrion on the surface of the waters holding and protecting seeds in their bodies. Once again, Darwin made an astute observation: “Again, I can show that the carcasses of birds, when floating on the sea, sometimes escape being immediately devoured: and many kinds of seeds in the crops of floating birds long retain their vitality. . . but some taken out of the crop of a pigeon, which had floated on artificial sea-water for 30 days, to my surprise nearly all germinated.”7

You know what, it really doesn't matter if all those plants and trees grow back later, because those animals need them right fucking now.

The fact that eventually there will be Bamboo forests again isn't much comfort to Mr. and Mrs Panda,have specialized dietary needs that aren't being filled.

Quote:Conclusion

There is no doubt that plants survived the Flood. The means by which they survived are numerous, but only a few examples are given here. So the skeptics’ claim that, “plants could not have survived the Flood,” is without warrant. Furthermore, by making this claim they inadvertently invalidate some of the studies of Darwin himself
Quote:Wow, appeals to authority, creationists have never done that before.
. However, the real question becomes: how can any skeptics’ claims (man’s ideas) survive the great flood of logic from God’s Word and common sense? They can’t!

Oh yes, logic and common sense absolutely permeated this articleRolleyes, when A High-School freshman can pick apart your "Logic" and "Common sense", you have a problem.

I Will have My revenge on AlternateHistory.com, in this life or the next Evil_monster

~WrappedInShadows (AKA Me)
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15-09-2013, 07:21 PM
RE: Plants Could Totally Have Survived Noah's Flood Guize!
Quote: Unfortunately, this sometimes causes believers to doubt God’s Word

He's fucking got that right.
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15-09-2013, 07:27 PM
RE: Plants Could Totally Have Survived Noah's Flood Guize!
(15-09-2013 07:21 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote: Unfortunately, this sometimes causes believers to doubt God’s Word

He's fucking got that right.

Isn't it a shame when logic gets in the way of the complete bullshit being sold by the various religions?

All information in the above post is my own opinion and will not
necessarily be logically sound or conform to reality as we know it.

You have been warned. Tongue
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16-09-2013, 11:07 AM
RE: Plants Could Totally Have Survived Noah's Flood Guize!
Odd, yesterday evening the thought went through my mind of how do bible literalists explain the vast number of different plants that survived the great flood. I did a little search on this site and found it was a topic that had been discussed before so I just let it go. But now someone has opened it again so I will comment.

There are plants that spread through sprouting root systems an obvious one is Populus tremuloides (Quaking Aspen). I have personal knowledge of its ability to root sprout in the backyard of my wife's home. There is one clonal colony which is estimated to be 80,000 years old.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lon..._organisms

You will note in the linked to wiki entry also a Larrea tridentata (creosote bush) estimated to be 12,000 years old (yes we Californians do everything on a grand scale even that horror which is LA).

It is not simply the age of plants that must be taken into account it is the immense diversity. In California alone there are 28 species of Calochortus. World wide there must be at least a million species of grasses. All survived this great flood?

How do biblical literalists deal with data that totally refutes their bible. It takes real faith.

No mention in the bible of plants on Noah's arc should cause biblical literalists great pause. It apparently does not. Things can be explained away by assuming the bible is correct and therefore evidence of its biological impossibilities do not prove anything but the greatness of god.

Those that find the bible metaphorical must also wonder where the metaphor ends and actual truth begins but that is another subject.
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16-09-2013, 11:23 AM
 
RE: Plants Could Totally Have Survived Noah's Flood Guize!
Quote:The Bible states there was a worldwide Flood.
We see plants today.
Therefore plants survived the Flood.

[Image: circular_logic_by_mestafais-d5vm1d1.gif]
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16-09-2013, 11:32 AM
RE: Plants Could Totally Have Survived Noah's Flood Guize!
(16-09-2013 11:23 AM)Philosoraptor Wrote:  
Quote:The Bible states there was a worldwide Flood.
We see plants today.
Therefore plants survived the Flood.

[Image: circular_logic_by_mestafais-d5vm1d1.gif]

Checkmate, atheists!

... this is my signature!
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16-09-2013, 11:35 AM
 
RE: Plants Could Totally Have Survived Noah's Flood Guize!
(16-09-2013 11:32 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Checkmate, atheists!

Yeah, they totally flooded us with good arguments. I better go drown myself in shame.

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16-09-2013, 01:03 PM
RE: Plants Could Totally Have Survived Noah's Flood Guize!
If the bible said you could get your dick up your own arse they'd probably try it.

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16-09-2013, 01:27 PM
RE: Plants Could Totally Have Survived Noah's Flood Guize!
We see incredible bio-diversity stemming from evolution, even in modern times (like dog species from wolves).

It sounds like y'all are claiming Noah couldn't have brought seed packets with him on the boat? Give a good early date to the Flood like 100,000 years ago and you could have the older plants that are cited on this thread, yeah?
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16-09-2013, 01:44 PM
 
RE: Plants Could Totally Have Survived Noah's Flood Guize!
(16-09-2013 01:27 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  We see incredible bio-diversity stemming from evolution, even in modern times (like dog species from wolves).

It sounds like y'all are claiming Noah couldn't have brought seed packets with him on the boat? Give a good early date to the Flood like 100,000 years ago and you could have the older plants that are cited on this thread, yeah?

Did you have a good weekend, PJ? For you were absent since Friday, and you don't seem any less annoying than you were then.
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