Plants Could Totally Have Survived Noah's Flood Guize!
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24-09-2013, 08:58 AM
RE: Plants Could Totally Have Survived Noah's Flood Guize!
(24-09-2013 08:38 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  4. There is certainly a reason to think the plate movement rate has changed, since scientists acknowledge catastrophisms like the recent Japanese earthquake

It would be more reasonable to conclude that there may have been more recent catastrophisms, especially when being open-minded to see if the Noahic flood is a myth or 100% fact or... somewhere in between.

We have solid evidence that sea-floor spreading in the Atlantic has been going on at a fairly constant rate for millions of years by the banding of magnetism from pole reversals and radiological age dating of the associated rocks. This is the proof of plates moving. Slooooooowly. For a looooooong time.

There is also a sedimentary layer that has been laid down on top of that that is also consistent with those ages, with no evidence of it being interrupted by a flood.

There have been local floods in various parts of the world, most of which were not witnessed by Homo sapiens. The geological evidence shows these and no world-wide flood.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-09-2013, 11:31 AM
RE: Plants Could Totally Have Survived Noah's Flood Guize!
CJLR:

Quote:Yes. You might notice that this is exactly as predicted by theory... Yes. You might notice that this is exactly as predicted by theory. Motion of any given specific plate will vary as conditions change. The overall mechanisms do not change. At least, not according to all evidence ever observed.

I'm not wanting to argue plate theory with you so I shall not, but it has limitations. It is an evolving science that changed even over my lifetime. You are being disingenuous and exchanging an anti-science bias that I don't hold with understanding when a theory is lacking in some empirical data. From Wikipedia:

Tectonic plates are composed of oceanic lithosphere and thicker continental lithosphere, each topped by its own kind of crust. Along convergent boundaries, subduction carries plates into the mantle; the material lost is roughly balanced by the formation of new (oceanic) crust along divergent margins by seafloor spreading. In this way, the total surface of the globe remains the same. This prediction of plate tectonics is also referred to as the conveyor belt principle. Earlier theories (that still have some supporters) proposed gradual shrinking (contraction) or gradual expansion of the globe.[3]

Tectonic plates are able to move because the Earth's lithosphere has a higher strength than the underlying asthenosphere. Lateral density variations in the mantle result in convection. Plate movement is thought to be driven by a combination of the motion of the seafloor away from the spreading ridge (due to variations in topography and density of the crust, which result in differences in gravitational forces) and drag, downward suction, at the subduction zones. Another explanation lies in the different forces generated by the rotation of the globe and the tidal forces of the Sun and the Moon. The relative importance of each of these factors is unclear, and is still subject to debate.

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24-09-2013, 12:42 PM
RE: Plants Could Totally Have Survived Noah's Flood Guize!
(24-09-2013 11:31 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  CJLR:

Quote:Yes. You might notice that this is exactly as predicted by theory... Yes. You might notice that this is exactly as predicted by theory. Motion of any given specific plate will vary as conditions change. The overall mechanisms do not change. At least, not according to all evidence ever observed.

I'm not wanting to argue plate theory with you so I shall not, but it has limitations. It is an evolving science that changed even over my lifetime. You are being disingenuous and exchanging an anti-science bias that I don't hold with understanding when a theory is lacking in some empirical data. From Wikipedia:

Tectonic plates are composed of oceanic lithosphere and thicker continental lithosphere, each topped by its own kind of crust. Along convergent boundaries, subduction carries plates into the mantle; the material lost is roughly balanced by the formation of new (oceanic) crust along divergent margins by seafloor spreading. In this way, the total surface of the globe remains the same. This prediction of plate tectonics is also referred to as the conveyor belt principle. Earlier theories (that still have some supporters) proposed gradual shrinking (contraction) or gradual expansion of the globe.[3]

Tectonic plates are able to move because the Earth's lithosphere has a higher strength than the underlying asthenosphere. Lateral density variations in the mantle result in convection. Plate movement is thought to be driven by a combination of the motion of the seafloor away from the spreading ridge (due to variations in topography and density of the crust, which result in differences in gravitational forces) and drag, downward suction, at the subduction zones. Another explanation lies in the different forces generated by the rotation of the globe and the tidal forces of the Sun and the Moon. The relative importance of each of these factors is unclear, and is still subject to debate.

Etc.

You really, really don't understand how science operates, do you?

We don't claim perfect knowledge. It is a process for discovering the nature of reality. Our knowledge advances.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-09-2013, 01:09 PM
RE: Plants Could Totally Have Survived Noah's Flood Guize!
(24-09-2013 12:42 PM)Chas Wrote:  You really, really don't understand how science operates, do you?

We don't claim perfect knowledge. It is a process for discovering the nature of reality. Our knowledge advances.

Chas,

You've made a general, sweeping statement there. I do understand progressive knowledge, accumulated knowledge, etc. as do you.

I'm sure you will acknowledge, because you are honest (god I hate the web sometimes--this last is sincere, not facetious) - because you are honest, you will admit that your picture of science and knowledge ALWAYS advancing is not a complete picture. Sometimes scientists go in wrong directions.

Please allow me to present an example:

UFOs appear in the sky and reveal themselves. (Now they are FOs not UFOs.) This evolved, higher race of beings kindly reveal their benevolence and present man with technology like clean, efficient renewable energy. They are advanced and traveled the stars in the days of our pre-history and have been observing man and other species on Earth for millennia.

Of course the natural question is "Have you interacted with humans, evolution or our planet before?" Do you believe such a scenario is possible? If so, if an intelligent race just ahead of us or more worked their technologies on the Earth, how would that change your view of uniformitarian assumptions about geologic movement, evolution, etc. over time?
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24-09-2013, 01:09 PM
RE: Plants Could Totally Have Survived Noah's Flood Guize!
Are you or are you not claiming that, as a consequence of Noah's story being an accurate report of historical events, the following is also true:
1- pre-flood Earth was pretty much flat.
2-all continents absolutely needed to be linked together.
3-continents moved from the Pangea position to their current one within one single year.
4-mount Arrarat specifically, but also the Himalayan mountain range were created within the same period.

Note that these are all yes/no questions.
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24-09-2013, 01:12 PM
RE: Plants Could Totally Have Survived Noah's Flood Guize!
(24-09-2013 01:09 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(24-09-2013 12:42 PM)Chas Wrote:  You really, really don't understand how science operates, do you?

We don't claim perfect knowledge. It is a process for discovering the nature of reality. Our knowledge advances.

Chas,

You've made a general, sweeping statement there. I do understand progressive knowledge, accumulated knowledge, etc. as do you.

I'm sure you will acknowledge, because you are honest (god I hate the web sometimes--this last is sincere, not facetious) - because you are honest, you will admit that your picture of science and knowledge ALWAYS advancing is not a complete picture. Sometimes scientists go in wrong directions.

Please allow me to present an example:

UFOs appear in the sky and reveal themselves. (Now they are FOs not UFOs.) This evolved, higher race of beings kindly reveal their benevolence and present man with technology like clean, efficient renewable energy. They are advanced and traveled the stars in the days of our pre-history and have been observing man and other species on Earth for millennia.

Of course the natural question is "Have you interacted with humans, evolution or our planet before?" Do you believe such a scenario is possible? If so, if an intelligent race just ahead of us or more worked their technologies on the Earth, how would that change your view of uniformitarian assumptions about geologic movement, evolution, etc. over time?

There is no evidence of that, so it is not an apt point. I deal with actual science, actual experiment, actual data.

Let's discuss actual science, not silly scenarios.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-09-2013, 12:10 AM
RE: Plants Could Totally Have Survived Noah's Flood Guize!
(24-09-2013 01:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(24-09-2013 01:09 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Chas,

You've made a general, sweeping statement there. I do understand progressive knowledge, accumulated knowledge, etc. as do you.

I'm sure you will acknowledge, because you are honest (god I hate the web sometimes--this last is sincere, not facetious) - because you are honest, you will admit that your picture of science and knowledge ALWAYS advancing is not a complete picture. Sometimes scientists go in wrong directions.

Please allow me to present an example:

UFOs appear in the sky and reveal themselves. (Now they are FOs not UFOs.) This evolved, higher race of beings kindly reveal their benevolence and present man with technology like clean, efficient renewable energy. They are advanced and traveled the stars in the days of our pre-history and have been observing man and other species on Earth for millennia.

Of course the natural question is "Have you interacted with humans, evolution or our planet before?" Do you believe such a scenario is possible? If so, if an intelligent race just ahead of us or more worked their technologies on the Earth, how would that change your view of uniformitarian assumptions about geologic movement, evolution, etc. over time?

There is no evidence of that, so it is not an apt point. I deal with actual science, actual experiment, actual data.

Let's discuss actual science, not silly scenarios.

But you don't get it Chas! The point is that there could be a chance that science is wrong, and PJ needs that little gap or wedge in the possibility to cram his belief into...

Probability isn't anywhere near as important for him as possibility (if only because the probability of his belief is near zero, if it was closer to 90% you can be damn well sure he'd be all over the probability).

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25-09-2013, 12:28 AM
RE: Plants Could Totally Have Survived Noah's Flood Guize!
(24-09-2013 08:38 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  4. There is certainly a reason to think the plate movement rate has changed, since scientists acknowledge catastrophisms like the recent Japanese earthquake

It would be more reasonable to conclude that there may have been more recent catastrophisms, especially when being open-minded to see if the Noahic flood is a myth or 100% fact or... somewhere in between.

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(24-09-2013 08:58 AM)Chas Wrote:  We have solid evidence that sea-floor spreading in the Atlantic has been going on at a fairly constant rate for millions of years by the banding of magnetism from pole reversals and radiological age dating of the associated rocks. This is the proof of plates moving. Slooooooowly. For a looooooong time.

http://geography.about.com/od/physicalge...gnetic.htm

http://www.geologyrocks.co.uk/tutorials/...s_evidence




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25-09-2013, 01:52 AM
RE: Plants Could Totally Have Survived Noah's Flood Guize!
(25-09-2013 12:10 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(24-09-2013 01:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is no evidence of that, so it is not an apt point. I deal with actual science, actual experiment, actual data.

Let's discuss actual science, not silly scenarios.

But you don't get it Chas! The point is that there could be a chance that science is wrong, and PJ needs that little gap or wedge in the possibility to cram his belief into...

Probability isn't anywhere near as important for him as possibility (if only because the probability of his belief is near zero, if it was closer to 90% you can be damn well sure he'd be all over the probability).

PJ actually is very weak in faith, he has to have , must have, everything be true or his world shatters. He has argued endlessly over stuff that is laughably false and he knows it. Go look up the discussion on the shroud of turin or his failed evolution threads. His construct of god cannot exist if the bible is not 100% true and since we all know that is not the case he must spin these lies that even he knows are full of more holes than fancy lace swiss cheese.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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25-09-2013, 12:37 PM
RE: Plants Could Totally Have Survived Noah's Flood Guize!
(25-09-2013 01:52 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(25-09-2013 12:10 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  But you don't get it Chas! The point is that there could be a chance that science is wrong, and PJ needs that little gap or wedge in the possibility to cram his belief into...

Probability isn't anywhere near as important for him as possibility (if only because the probability of his belief is near zero, if it was closer to 90% you can be damn well sure he'd be all over the probability).

PJ actually is very weak in faith, he has to have , must have, everything be true or his world shatters. He has argued endlessly over stuff that is laughably false and he knows it. Go look up the discussion on the shroud of turin or his failed evolution threads. His construct of god cannot exist if the bible is not 100% true and since we all know that is not the case he must spin these lies that even he knows are full of more holes than fancy lace swiss cheese.

I haven't claimed ever to be strong in faith. I do claim I'm strong in knowledge, a knowledge that has resulted from exactly what you wrote--either the Bible is 100% true or it's rather useless.
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