Platitudes
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08-09-2014, 11:52 AM
RE: Platitudes
(08-09-2014 11:13 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Being a former Pentecostal, they believed baptism was NOT necessary for salvation, I think RobbyPants can attest to this, the Baptists believed we were headed straight to hell unless we were baptized, and there's even differences over the method. Sprinkled? Full Immersion?
And it still hasn't been resolved in 2000 years!

Yeah, this is another can of worms for the group. Each side always busts out the same verses. The objection I see every time is "what about that guy on the cross next to Jesus?!".

But, yeah, it's chock full of contradictions. Thus, the spin doctors apologists will come up with a very complex rubric for why it means specifically X, and why that's not actually a contradiction. Related: the Trinity.
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08-09-2014, 11:55 AM
RE: Platitudes
(08-09-2014 09:52 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Both of them said things to the effect of "doctrine can cause division" or "when we die, we'll find out we were all wrong about doctrine". Both encouraged people to not get hung up on issues of doctrine, and instead, to only worry about "the doctrine of Jesus Christ".

Now, I'm sure that sounds all profound and stuff...
Nope, doesn't sound profound in the least Dodgy...

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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08-09-2014, 01:45 PM
RE: Platitudes
I teach and write and write about 'doctrine' for a living.

Atheists do it too.

Even on this forum when writing policy statements, there are those who say we only need one policy: "Don't be a dick".

Well, that's all very nice and there has been much discussion on Universal Principles in that really long, self-flagellation thread started by Luminon.
This is a stage 6 morality and as far as I can tell does not exist in reality (yet).

If the christians are putting forward some Universal Principles based on JC's doctrine as some aspiration or vision for the future, well, great... let's define those and discuss them to find out if they are truly 'universal'.

Until then, we need frameworks, standards, ethics, policies, laws (call 'em doctrines if you like) the determines what to do when some people decide that they want to be dick.

Dodgy

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08-09-2014, 04:33 PM
RE: Platitudes
(08-09-2014 10:31 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(08-09-2014 10:22 AM)Impulse Wrote:  I think Christians get as frustrated arguing with each other sometimes just like atheist do arguing with them. It's their end game; a way of stopping what would otherwise be endless bickering.

Person 1: I'm right.
Person 2: No, I'm right.
Person 1: No, I'm right.
Person 2: No, I'm right.
Person 1: Forget it, just believe.
Person 2: Ok... but I'm still right. Tongue
Person 1: Dodgy

LOL, Have you ever witnessed the deep discussions between people of the same church?
Person 1:Jesus said such and such.
Person 2:But in this chapter he said such and such.
Person 1:But here he said such and such.
Person 2:But the original Hebrew used this word....

[Image: woman-sklaps-man-cartoon__140302192155.jpg]
Yeah, it's amazing how many can't agree on what's supposed to be shared belief.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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08-09-2014, 05:28 PM (This post was last modified: 08-09-2014 06:36 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Platitudes
I have gratitude my attitudes towards platitudes have some latitude.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-09-2014, 05:44 PM
RE: Platitudes
(08-09-2014 09:52 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I have a Baptist friend who runs a group on Facebook. Within a few days, two separate posts caused different people to post almost the exact same response:

Both of them said things to the effect of "doctrine can cause division" or "when we die, we'll find out we were all wrong about doctrine". Both encouraged people to not get hung up on issues of doctrine, and instead, to only worry about "the doctrine of Jesus Christ".

Now, I'm sure that sounds all profound and stuff, but what does that even mean? I understand what they're getting at, but if you try to get down to specifics, no one can give a coherent answer. Everyone who has an opinion on doctrine believes that theirs is the One True doctrine. What is the doctrine of Jesus Christ? The fact that no two Christians can give the same answer should set up a red flag, right there.

The closest thing I could think of would be something like a "love God and love each other" sort of thing, but every time I see an author try to boil it down to something so simple, they're always branded as heretics with "false doctrines".

Also, important to note: neither of the two posters show any signs of shutting up about their individual doctrines, so, it seems the platitude isn't particularly effective.

I will paste a tiny bit of my posting from History of Christianity REL 450 class on this very subject. Basic doctrine of jesus christ is:

Taking into consideration the Christian tradition of Jesus of the NT; As a teacher, Jesus had a lot in common with the Pharisees, especially those who follow the “spirit of the law.” Like them, he valued the temple sacrifices but was more concerned with how people lived their lives. Jesus shared the Pharisees belief that the Torah was sacred and thought that sincerely attempting to follow it was the way to come closer to God, but he went further – Jesus taught that the true meaning of the Torah could be summed up into the phrases: love God, and love your neighbor. This, to Jesus, was the essence of the Torah, the essence of Judaism, and the essence of what he wanted to know (Stewart 26).

Works cited:

Stewart, Cynthia., The Catholic church: a brief popular history. Winona, Mn: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2008. Print.

Smartass

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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08-09-2014, 06:23 PM (This post was last modified: 08-09-2014 06:38 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Platitudes
(08-09-2014 05:44 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(08-09-2014 09:52 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I have a Baptist friend who runs a group on Facebook. Within a few days, two separate posts caused different people to post almost the exact same response:

Both of them said things to the effect of "doctrine can cause division" or "when we die, we'll find out we were all wrong about doctrine". Both encouraged people to not get hung up on issues of doctrine, and instead, to only worry about "the doctrine of Jesus Christ".

Now, I'm sure that sounds all profound and stuff, but what does that even mean? I understand what they're getting at, but if you try to get down to specifics, no one can give a coherent answer. Everyone who has an opinion on doctrine believes that theirs is the One True doctrine. What is the doctrine of Jesus Christ? The fact that no two Christians can give the same answer should set up a red flag, right there.

The closest thing I could think of would be something like a "love God and love each other" sort of thing, but every time I see an author try to boil it down to something so simple, they're always branded as heretics with "false doctrines".

Also, important to note: neither of the two posters show any signs of shutting up about their individual doctrines, so, it seems the platitude isn't particularly effective.

I will paste a tiny bit of my posting from History of Christianity REL 450 class on this very subject. Basic doctrine of jesus christ is:

Taking into consideration the Christian tradition of Jesus of the NT; As a teacher, Jesus had a lot in common with the Pharisees, especially those who follow the “spirit of the law.” Like them, he valued the temple sacrifices but was more concerned with how people lived their lives. Jesus shared the Pharisees belief that the Torah was sacred and thought that sincerely attempting to follow it was the way to come closer to God, but he went further – Jesus taught that the true meaning of the Torah could be summed up into the phrases: love God, and love your neighbor. This, to Jesus, was the essence of the Torah, the essence of Judaism, and the essence of what he wanted to know (Stewart 26).

Works cited:

Stewart, Cynthia., The Catholic church: a brief popular history. Winona, Mn: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2008. Print.

Smartass

The thing is, all that is, really, .... is a re-hash of the general trends of the time. Nothing is unique to Jesus. I find it (not your exposition of it, but the fact it's proposed at all) really strange. First of all, all Jewish rabbis were married. There was only one who wasn't, and it was SO unusual that it was remarked on, and written about. No one questioned Jesus about it. THAT is VERY VERY odd. The lives of young Jewish men who became rabbis, were very regimented, and marriage was an integral step. Second, the "Love god and love your neighbor" thing was not unique in any way to him. At the time of the diaspora, there was a general trend towards simplifying all the legalisms. May of the Jewish preachers were preaching this particular simplification. As far as I can see, this "doctrine" is an argument that they cooked him up from scratch by assembling general themes that were known to be circulating. I'm also starting to wonder if Paul ever really existed. How is it no Jewish rabbinic writings of the time even mention an apostate star student of Gamaliel, who studied under the "master" and enforced orthodoxy on behalf of the high priests, suddenly changed his stance ? Not one word from the rabbis about the star pupil who "went bad". Such a renegade rabbi could not have escaped the attention of the scribes. Drinking Beverage

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-09-2014, 06:30 PM
RE: Platitudes
(08-09-2014 06:23 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(08-09-2014 05:44 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  I will paste a tiny bit of my posting from History of Christianity REL 450 class on this very subject. Basic doctrine of jesus christ is:

Taking into consideration the Christian tradition of Jesus of the NT; As a teacher, Jesus had a lot in common with the Pharisees, especially those who follow the “spirit of the law.” Like them, he valued the temple sacrifices but was more concerned with how people lived their lives. Jesus shared the Pharisees belief that the Torah was sacred and thought that sincerely attempting to follow it was the way to come closer to God, but he went further – Jesus taught that the true meaning of the Torah could be summed up into the phrases: love God, and love your neighbor. This, to Jesus, was the essence of the Torah, the essence of Judaism, and the essence of what he wanted to know (Stewart 26).

Works cited:

Stewart, Cynthia., The Catholic church: a brief popular history. Winona, Mn: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2008. Print.

Smartass

The thing is, all that is, really, .... is a re-hash of the general trends of the time. Nothing is unique to Jesus. I find it (not your exposition of it, but the fact it's proposed at all) really strange. First of all, all Jewish rabbis were married. There was only one who wasn't, and it was SO unusual that it was remarked on, and written about. No one questioned Jesus about it. THAT is VERY VERY odd. The lives of young Jewish men who became rabbis, was very regimented, and marriage was an integral step. Second, the "Love god and love your neighbor" thing was not unique in any way to him. At the time of the diaspora, there was a general trend towards simplifying all the legalisms. May of the Jewish preachers were preaching this particular simplification. As far as I can see, this "doctrine" is an argument that they cooked him up from scratch by assembling general themes that were known to be circulating. I'm also starting to wonder if Paul ever really existed. How is it no Jewish rabbinic writings of the time even mention a apostate star student of Gamaliel, who studied under the "master" and enforced orthodoxy on behalf of the high priests, suddenly changed his stance ? No one word from the rabbis about the star pupil who "went bad". Such a renegade rabbi could not have escaped the attention of the scribes. Drinking Beverage

Oh I am with you Robby, you and I share very similar critical views of the reality of any of it. Especially when the scholars openly admit that it was the custom back then to attribute any writings to a historical or legendary "mythical hero" or "legend" in order to give it credibility. i.e noah, moses etc

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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08-09-2014, 10:40 PM
RE: Platitudes
(08-09-2014 05:28 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I have gratitude my attitudes towards platitudes have some latitude.
Yeah, but you need sanctitude, dude, to see the schadenfreude with rectitude.
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09-09-2014, 12:24 AM
RE: Platitudes
Actually, platitudes are ineffective.

"If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story." Orson Welles
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