Pleasant Discussion
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25-04-2010, 06:44 PM
RE: Pleasant Discussion
I'll take this sudden topic change, then, as confirmation that you acknowledge the difference between science and its application. And now, as I'm not interested in the whole "problem of evil" thing, I shall take my leave.

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"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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25-04-2010, 06:53 PM
 
RE: Pleasant Discussion
(25-04-2010 05:57 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  You're asking if I think the problem of evil is a valid objection to theism? First of all, no, but I won't go into the details here, as that isn't the topic at hand. Secondly, stop trying to change the subject.

No that is not where I am going. Not trying to change the subject. I will respond to this and the science post from earlier.

Unbeliever lives in a theoretical world, a hypothetical world, and for a good portion of his day a fantasy world. Because of his age, my guess is if he has never even had a job or if he did it is a lower level entry position. He has never had to make a budget, raise money for a project, convince the banks to lend him money or get benefactors to provide funding for his latest project. He has his classes, his video games and internet connection that provides him with answers to questions that he knows nothing about. Much like a priest giving out marriage advice, he talks about science and natural law, and all that science does is explain the world that we see. And I can tell you, you're dead wrong. So step away from the video games and ask your science chairs were they get the money for the buildings you set in? What benefactors donated to build the classrooms and labs you sit in? My guess is everyone of them was a "for profit business" and not with his and others on this sites definition " Science is the concerted human effort to understand, or to understand better, the history of the natural world and how the natural world works, with observable physical evidence as the basis of that understanding"
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25-04-2010, 06:54 PM
RE: Pleasant Discussion
Wow, nice exit Unbeliever.

(25-04-2010 06:29 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  You are not even close! No disrespect because I think very highly of the way you think and respond, but dig deeper and think more.

Alright, then guide me. To answer your question,
(25-04-2010 05:50 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  So...Let me ask you a question when it comes to God, do you blame Him, or do you blame what people have done with His creation?
Not everything can be pinned on one side, god or people. As I recall, you believe that god doesn't directly affect our actions. So, people would be blamed for a lot of things; murder, rape, theft. Depending in how involved god is in out world, he could be blamed for natural disasters and other such things.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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25-04-2010, 06:58 PM
RE: Pleasant Discussion
(25-04-2010 06:53 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  No that is not where I am going. Not trying to change the subject. I will respond to this and the science post from earlier.

Care to explain what this has to do with science, then?

Quote:Unbeliever lives in a theoretical world, a hypothetical world, and for a good portion of his day a fantasy world.

A "good portion"? Try "entirety". Tongue

Quote:Because of his age, my guess is if he has never even had a job

Nope, but not for the reason you think.
I'm in the Speed School of Engineering. It's an accelerated-education program: a five-year master's degree course. Because it's more intense than the other departments here, we are encouraged (read: told) not to get jobs, as they would make it impossible for us to keep up.

Quote:He has his classes, his video games and internet connection that provides him with answers to questions that he knows nothing about.

Answers to questions? Yes. Questions that I know nothing about? No. I may be active online, but I do have a life.

Quote:Much like a priest giving out marriage advice, he talks about science and natural law, and all that science does is explain the world that we see.

This sentence doesn't make any sense. Care to explain what it is that you mean here? I think you've missing some punctuation, or perhaps an entire clause.

Quote:And I can tell you, you're dead wrong.

Then explain how. Don't just assert. What does it take to get this through your head?

Quote:So step away from the video games and ask your science chairs were they get the money for the buildings you set in? What benefactors donated to build the classrooms and labs you sit in?

Does it matter? No. Stop trying to deflect from the subject at hand.

Quote:My guess is everyone of them was a "for profit business" and not with his and others on this sites definition " Science is the concerted human effort to understand, or to understand better, the history of the natural world and how the natural world works, with observable physical evidence as the basis of that understanding"

Again you confuse science with its applications. Stop strawmanning. This has been explained to you time and again. The only reasonable conclusion is that you are being deliberately obtuse, and I'm running out of patience for you.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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25-04-2010, 06:59 PM
 
RE: Pleasant Discussion
True enough, much of what we see today, is due directly from the advancement of another technology. There is a reason we see technological booms after wars end after all.

However, I could just as easily turn the conversation in a different direction and ask a doctor. Excuse me, but why is it that you decided to become a doctor? Was it because of money, or fame in diagnosing a potential new disease? I suspect the answer will be because they love what they are doing.

Now what if I ask them why they charge fees for their services? I strongly suspect, it is so that they may continue doing what it is they love. As the saying goes, money makes the world go round, and that is not too far of an exaggeration from the truth.

Clarifying somethings production, does not separate it from its function.
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25-04-2010, 07:19 PM
 
RE: Pleasant Discussion
not necessarily even if we assume god is all powerfull and everything doesnt change the fact that some things cant be done no matter how you try. if we assume the laws of physics as the way god gave the world shape. he would have to design them in such a way to never conflict or provide dilemmas. despite being all knowing it doesnt mean everything is possible. he can just do everything that is possible within that frame.

there are seven bridges on two islands and the mainland there is no way to only cross one bridge once no matter what route you take. gods power may be unlimited but not unconstrained by his own laws and time. there are a finite number of posiibilities especially when you increase the number of complicated conflicting factors. and taking into account how complex the world is. it isnt surprising that not everything fits as well as in a simplified abstract model in theory.
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25-04-2010, 07:29 PM
 
RE: Pleasant Discussion
No, by the very definition of what Yahweh is, it would need to be capable of doing 'everything'. This is why the problem of the rock made heavier than god could lift, becomes an ontological nightmare for the very existence of a god.
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25-04-2010, 07:42 PM
 
RE: Pleasant Discussion
(25-04-2010 06:54 PM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  Wow, nice exit Unbeliever.

(25-04-2010 06:29 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  You are not even close! No disrespect because I think very highly of the way you think and respond, but dig deeper and think more.

Alright, then guide me. To answer your question,
(25-04-2010 05:50 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  So...Let me ask you a question when it comes to God, do you blame Him, or do you blame what people have done with His creation?
Not everything can be pinned on one side, god or people. As I recall, you believe that god doesn't directly affect our actions. So, people would be blamed for a lot of things; murder, rape, theft. Depending in how involved god is in out world, he could be blamed for natural disasters and other such things.

Nicely done! "Depending in how involved god is in out world, he could be blamed for natural disasters and other such things." Much like "science" cannot be blame for what people do with it's creation. God cannot be blamed for what people do with His. Except when you get to certain natural disasters. So great question, and I think I mentioned that on this site with Haiti when it happened.

"Science tells us what cancer is, god gives us cancer. See the difference? " This where you are off. From my side God does not give us cancer, Science has and does gives us cancer. Be a skeptic and look at both sides.
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25-04-2010, 07:52 PM
 
RE: Pleasant Discussion
Please review post #60.
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25-04-2010, 08:14 PM
RE: Pleasant Discussion
(25-04-2010 07:42 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  Nicely done! "Depending in how involved god is in out world, he could be blamed for natural disasters and other such things." Much like "science" cannot be blame for what people do with it's creation. God cannot be blamed for what people do with His. Except when you get to certain natural disasters. So great question, and I think I mentioned that on this site with Haiti when it happened.

"Science tells us what cancer is, god gives us cancer. See the difference? " This where you are off. From my side God does not give us cancer, Science has and does gives us cancer. Be a skeptic and look at both sides.

Science gives us cancer? Lets examine this for a second. Lets says a man working for at a nuclear power-plant, made possible only though scientific discoveries, gets cancer. This is an acceptable example, right? If science hadn't given us the knowledge, we wouldn't have it. However, science has given only the information of the atom's nucleus. We could have ended at that. Science is done at that point, but people have seen the power held in a nucleus, and used that. It's not science itself that built the power-plant, it's people looking to use what science has discovered.
Science--->Information--->Technology--->Cancer

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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