Pleasant Discussion
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25-04-2010, 08:30 PM
 
RE: Pleasant Discussion
(25-04-2010 06:43 PM)Ceryle Wrote:  By default, I would require myself to to blame Yahweh.

If I were an omnipotent(all powerful), omnipresent(everywhere), Omniscient(all knowing), {I will leave out omni-benevolent for the time being.} entity, then the very act of creating the universe(i.e. everything), would mean that I not only knew of every single event that would occur, but would have the ability to alter it before happening, an infinite amount of time prior to its occurrence.

I would know of every single event no matter how small, and I would allow it to happen. Despite, having the ability to generate an environment, wherein the consequences of that event would not be dependent upon its initiation.

Therefore, I argue that such an argument, in and of itself is illogical and flawed. As, being part of that very creation, Yahweh would have engineered every event to ever take place, involving the interactions between humanity and their environment.

"Therefore, I argue that such an argument, in and of itself is illogical and flawed. As, being part of that very creation, Yahweh would have engineered every event to ever take place, involving the interactions between humanity and their environment."

I have talked about this one numerous times. Knowing that an event is going to take place, and causing it to happen are two different things. Let's say God knows you are going to murder someone tomorrow, You have free will to murder or not. If he stops it, what happens to your free will. Someone on this site without thinking said he can remove the part of your brain that causes hostility, but what that person failed to think about was what else would be effected and affected by the removal of that part of the brain?
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25-04-2010, 08:33 PM
 
RE: Pleasant Discussion
Are you honestly making a case for, of all things, free will? From a theistic perspective? o_O

{I'm actually having to stop repeatedly here due to mental anguish}

In a universe with a god, such as Yahweh, free will does not exist.
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25-04-2010, 08:44 PM
 
RE: Pleasant Discussion
(25-04-2010 08:14 PM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  
(25-04-2010 07:42 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  Nicely done! "Depending in how involved god is in out world, he could be blamed for natural disasters and other such things." Much like "science" cannot be blame for what people do with it's creation. God cannot be blamed for what people do with His. Except when you get to certain natural disasters. So great question, and I think I mentioned that on this site with Haiti when it happened.

"Science tells us what cancer is, god gives us cancer. See the difference? " This where you are off. From my side God does not give us cancer, Science has and does gives us cancer. Be a skeptic and look at both sides.

Science gives us cancer? Lets examine this for a second. Lets says a man working for at a nuclear power-plant, made possible only though scientific discoveries, gets cancer. This is an acceptable example, right? If science hadn't given us the knowledge, we wouldn't have it. However, science has given only the information of the atom's nucleus. We could have ended at that. Science is done at that point, but people have seen the power held in a nucleus, and used that. It's not science itself that built the power-plant, it's people looking to use what science has discovered.
Science--->Information--->Technology--->Cancer

What I am saying is God did not create cancer. According to Washington University at least two-thirds of all cases of cancer in the U.S. are due to environmenal factors. That is, these factors give us hope if we modify our behaviors.

Some of these factors are:

* Tobacco: Accounts for about one-third of all cancer deaths in U.S. each year.
* Diet/Weight/Physical Inactivity: Obesity appears to be one of the most important modifiable causes of cancer after tobacco.
* Ultraviolet radiation: Radiation from the sun, sunlamps or tanning beds can lead to melanoma and other forms of skin cancer. The incidence of skin cancers is increasing.

Hard to blame God for those.

What about the other 1/3, ASPARTAME, SACCHARIN,SODIUM NITRATE,OLESTRA (Olean), ASBESTOS, FLUOROCARBONS, FOSSIL FUELS, RADIATION, HIGH TENSION POWER LINES. The list can go on and on. Once again blaming the creator rather than the creation.
(25-04-2010 08:33 PM)Ceryle Wrote:  Are you honestly making a case for, of all things, free will? From a theistic perspective? o_O

{I'm actually having to stop repeatedly here due to mental anguish}

In a universe with a god, such as Yahweh, free will does not exist.

Then you have no understanding of free will I'm afraid.
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25-04-2010, 08:48 PM
 
RE: Pleasant Discussion
For the love of god. {my god, not yours}

Wouldn't Yahweh have 'created' everything in the universe? Including all of those things that generate cancer in biological organisms? In fact, it would have created the universe, with the intention of having everything that has happened, happen. As being both omnipotent, and omniscient would create such a scenario. If Yahweh exists, then it did 'everything'. Everything 'good' and everything 'evil' and everything that ever was or will be, was and is god.
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25-04-2010, 08:48 PM
 
RE: Pleasant Discussion
(25-04-2010 08:14 PM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  
(25-04-2010 07:42 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  Nicely done! "Depending in how involved god is in out world, he could be blamed for natural disasters and other such things." Much like "science" cannot be blame for what people do with it's creation. God cannot be blamed for what people do with His. Except when you get to certain natural disasters. So great question, and I think I mentioned that on this site with Haiti when it happened.

"Science tells us what cancer is, god gives us cancer. See the difference? " This where you are off. From my side God does not give us cancer, Science has and does gives us cancer. Be a skeptic and look at both sides.

Science gives us cancer? Lets examine this for a second. Lets says a man working for at a nuclear power-plant, made possible only though scientific discoveries, gets cancer. This is an acceptable example, right? If science hadn't given us the knowledge, we wouldn't have it. However, science has given only the information of the atom's nucleus. We could have ended at that. Science is done at that point, but people have seen the power held in a nucleus, and used that. It's not science itself that built the power-plant, it's people looking to use what science has discovered.
Science--->Information--->Technology--->Cancer

Do a quick search for the causes of cancer and see where God fits in there.
(25-04-2010 08:48 PM)Ceryle Wrote:  For the love of god. {my god, not yours}

Wouldn't Yahweh have 'created' everything in the universe? Including all of those things that generate cancer in biological organisms? In fact, it would have created the universe, with the intention of having everything that has happened, happen. As being both omnipotent, and omniscient would create such a scenario. If Yahweh exists, then he did 'everything'. Everything 'good' and everything 'evil' and everything that ever was or will be, was and is god.

Nope, not even close! Again, if you are an atheist I smell baiting, how does being both omnipotent, and omniscient, have anything to do with the free will of men?
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25-04-2010, 08:56 PM
 
RE: Pleasant Discussion
"Nope, not even close! Again, if you are an atheist I smell baiting, how does being both omnipotent, and omniscient, have anything to do with the free will of men?"

I think I know where aneurysms come from now.

Tell me, what is free will to an entity that is all powerful and knows everything? Not only that, but what is free will to an entity that created the universe under the parameters of omnipotence and omniscience?
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25-04-2010, 09:00 PM
RE: Pleasant Discussion
(25-04-2010 08:48 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  Do a quick search for the causes of cancer and see where God fits in there.

I admit, god causing cancer would depend on the nature of god. I don't think god exists, so I can't assign a nature to him. I have reason to object to your idea of exactly who and what god is, and his nature. Long story short, if you say so. If your idea of god is formed in such a way he doesn't cause cancer, then I will let that be. I'm not interested in telling you what you believe about god. So, we are in agreement for the moment that god doesn't have to be cause of cancer. I'd rather move onto your claim that science causes cancer.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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25-04-2010, 09:12 PM
 
RE: Pleasant Discussion
(25-04-2010 08:56 PM)Ceryle Wrote:  "Nope, not even close! Again, if you are an atheist I smell baiting, how does being both omnipotent, and omniscient, have anything to do with the free will of men?"

I think I know where aneurysms come from now.

Tell me, what is free will to an entity that is all powerful and knows everything? Not only that, but what is free will to an entity that created the universe under the parameters of omnipotence and omniscience?

Not sure what you mean "what is free will to an entity that is all powerful and knows everything?" The free will I am talking about is ours.
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25-04-2010, 09:22 PM
 
RE: Pleasant Discussion
That is exactly what I am saying though, it isn't ours. Free will, in a universe with a god, does not exist.

In fact, the only entity with free will, in such a universe, would be the creator entity itself. What I am saying, is that this universe, would be nothing more than a story book, a light novella if you will, to god. The catch though, is that the book has already been read. Everything is already known, and no matter how many times you reread that page, the same exact event is going to take place, less you tear out the page and rewrite it I suppose.

But even more. Since, god not only is all powerful, and all knowing, but most importantly, created the universe. It, get this, also wrote that very book. When something horrible happens, it's because the author made it happen, didn't want that to happen? Well it didn't have to write it, but it did.

The concept of free will, as presented from a theological, Christian viewpoint, is a blatant contradiction, and lie.
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25-04-2010, 09:24 PM
 
RE: Pleasant Discussion
(25-04-2010 09:00 PM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  
(25-04-2010 08:48 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  Do a quick search for the causes of cancer and see where God fits in there.

I admit, god causing cancer would depend on the nature of god. I don't think god exists, so I can't assign a nature to him. I have reason to object to your idea of exactly who and what god is, and his nature. Long story short, if you say so. If your idea of god is formed in such a way he doesn't cause cancer, then I will let that be. I'm not interested in telling you what you believe about god. So, we are in agreement for the moment that god doesn't have to be cause of cancer. I'd rather move onto your claim that science causes cancer.

The war on cancer started in 1970, I was 10, cancer rates peaked in 1991. While I have no evidence right now of what I am going to say, I am sure they had been rising every year before 1970 till 1991. Look at all the things that we know now that cause cancer, for the most part man made.
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