Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
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10-11-2015, 12:51 PM
Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
I've been out of the military for a while now so I don't know if they are still doing this but. When we were in formation and there was public prayer, everyone was forced to bow their heads.
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10-11-2015, 01:06 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 12:29 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I think there are a large number of chaplains who cannot separate themselves from evangelizing. CHAPLAINS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE TRYING TO CONVERT PEOPLE TO CHRISTIANITY! They are to be a resource for people who are already Christian.

And also -- as you clearly realize -- a resource for people who aren't already Christian, won't become Christian, but can still use a bit of moral support from time to time.

Except, of course, for the chaplains who aren't.

Who calls them out on this? Is there a confidential system by which complaints can be filed against abusive chaplains? Do other chaplains cry foul and take them to task? It's a problem. Not a universal problem, not at all, but still a significant number, as you say. How does it get fixed?

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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10-11-2015, 01:11 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 01:06 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 12:29 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I think there are a large number of chaplains who cannot separate themselves from evangelizing. CHAPLAINS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE TRYING TO CONVERT PEOPLE TO CHRISTIANITY! They are to be a resource for people who are already Christian.

And also -- as you clearly realize -- a resource for people who aren't already Christian, won't become Christian, but can still use a bit of moral support from time to time.

Except, of course, for the chaplains who aren't.

Who calls them out on this? Is there a confidential system by which complaints can be filed against abusive chaplains? Do other chaplains cry foul and take them to task? It's a problem. Not a universal problem, not at all, but still a significant number, as you say. How does it get fixed?

I imagine one could go to the base Inspector General.
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10-11-2015, 01:17 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 11:36 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 10:46 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Why is the US government paying for chaplains ?
It is antithetical to patriotic American values, which separate religion from the state.
Military chaplains are used for several reasons but the center of everything a chaplain does is to maintain moral within the unit. First role is to advise the commander on things ethical and moral. It doesn't even have to be religious in nature. An example of this would be if a commander was planning to carry out an artillery strike on a village because it was a known strong hold for the enemy. It would be a chaplain who would be responsible to advise the commander if it could harm or damage the moral of the service members. I agree that anybody can give that type of advice and it doesn't necessarily have to be a chaplain but this is an extreme example to show how a chaplain may advise a commander.

The second roll of a chaplain is to provide religious services to the service members. If a service member needs spiritual counseling, a baptism, or anything else only an ordained leader in their faith can perform it would be a chaplain who would provide those services in order to keep moral high.

Third responsibility is to ensure a service member's freedom of religion is protected. An example of this would be if a Muslim was forced to eat at a chow hall and the facility only served pork. A chaplain would make arrangements for that individual to accommodate their religious requirements.

This is one thing that I found lacking in the military in regards to atheists. The military will go out of the way to accommodate people of religion but there seems to be a double standard towards atheist.

But that presents an inherent conflict of interest. Why are YOUR ethics and morals assumed to be the "correct" ones ?

There are countless recent examples where military base commanders hold religiously related events, and FORCE attendence, (even if they *say* it might somehow be optional).
http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/...-internet/

I say get the government out of the religion business. And it IS a business.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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10-11-2015, 02:29 PM (This post was last modified: 10-11-2015 02:39 PM by The Organic Chemist.)
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 11:36 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  First role is to advise the commander on things ethical and moral. It doesn't even have to be religious in nature.

Except that I, as well as some others on here, would argue that there is nothing ethical or moral about the christian faith. Vicarious redemption by human sacrifice and a "moral" base that is founded on the scapegoating of your "wrongdoings" upon another is hardly what I would call moral. The morals christians that I have interacted with are largely absent from the NT. Bear in mind that no known war was started over humanism.

(10-11-2015 11:36 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  An example of this would be if a commander was planning to carry out an artillery strike on a village because it was a known strong hold for the enemy. It would be a chaplain who would be responsible to advise the commander if it could harm or damage the moral of the service members. I agree that anybody can give that type of advice and it doesn't necessarily have to be a chaplain but this is an extreme example to show how a chaplain may advise a commander.

However, you are told by example in pretty much the entire OT to blast 'em like Moses and Joshua, and since god in unchanging (Hebrews 6:17, Hebrews 13:8, James 1:17, Malachi 3:6, Psalm 102:25-27, and Psalm 119:89) how could a person who believes the bible is the inerrant word of god ever square this circle without lying and expect to be taken seriously by people who do not base or draw their ethics or morals for a book that calls for so much suffering and wickedness in both the OT and NT? Coincidentally, if you advise the commander to not bomb the village, that is the humanist in you. The bible says blow 'em up (Numbers 25:1-9 and he is unchanging remember?). You made a moral decision independent of the bible so why do you even need it to begin with? Also, bear in mind who is attributed to the phrase "kill them all and let god sort it out" (Arnaud Amalric) and the context in which he was saying it.


(10-11-2015 11:36 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  The second roll of a chaplain is to provide religious services to the service members. If a service member needs spiritual counseling, a baptism, or anything else only an ordained leader in their faith can perform it would be a chaplain who would provide those services in order to keep moral high.

Did you mean moral or morale? Those are 2 different things. Nothing that you offer would make a person less likely to kill an unarmed person or behave in a more "moral" fashion. Additionally, if you believe that god wants a personal relationship with everyone (IF, you haven't said this but IF you think this) then you are nothing more than a middle man. If god wants a personal relationship, he can have it. He's friggin' GOD. Speaking through another person is not personal.

(10-11-2015 11:36 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Third responsibility is to ensure a service member's freedom of religion is protected. An example of this would be if a Muslim was forced to eat at a chow hall and the facility only served pork. A chaplain would make arrangements for that individual to accommodate their religious requirements.

Great, but if the military didn't have chaplains, would this even be a problem to begin with? And where were the chaplains when gays were being dismissed for crawling up in the "wrong" foxhole? There may have been some, but none that I ever heard of. You take an oath to defend America from all enemies, foreign and domestic. Wouldn't a person depriving a citizen a constitutional right make that person an enemy? If this is the case, shouldn't the higher ranking men be taking care of this in any event? Why does a chaplain need to go to bat for the muslim soldier? This shouldn't even be happening.

Also, flip it around. If an Imam in the military began preaching Wahabi Fundamentalism (which is his constitutional right) would you support it and defend him for preaching kill the infidels? Get rid of all religious figures in the military and this will not even be an issue.

(10-11-2015 11:36 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  This is one thing that I found lacking in the military in regards to atheists. The military will go out of the way to accommodate people of religion but there seems to be a double standard towards atheist.

Welcome to our reality. Try living as a non believer and that may give you some perspective as to the outrage we have to see every day and we don't take the course of action that is so often shown to us. The angry atheists aren't angry at god, they are angry at the assholes who follow him (I am not saying that all followers are assholes, I know that a majority are awesome people). I greatly appreciate your interest in protecting all faiths or lack thereof, not enough people like you around.

Bucky hit the nail on the head here:
Quote:But that presents an inherent conflict of interest. Why are YOUR ethics and morals assumed to be the "correct" ones ?

There are countless recent examples where military base commanders hold religiously related events, and FORCE attendance, (even if they *say* it might somehow be optional).
http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/...-internet/

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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10-11-2015, 03:03 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 02:29 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 11:36 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  First role is to advise the commander on things ethical and moral. It doesn't even have to be religious in nature.

Except that I, as well as some others on here, would argue that there is nothing ethical or moral about the christian faith. Vicarious redemption by human sacrifice and a "moral" base that is founded on the scapegoating of your "wrongdoings" upon another is hardly what I would call moral. The morals christians that I have interacted with are largely absent from the NT. Bear in mind that no known war was started over humanism.

(10-11-2015 11:36 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  An example of this would be if a commander was planning to carry out an artillery strike on a village because it was a known strong hold for the enemy. It would be a chaplain who would be responsible to advise the commander if it could harm or damage the moral of the service members. I agree that anybody can give that type of advice and it doesn't necessarily have to be a chaplain but this is an extreme example to show how a chaplain may advise a commander.

However, you are told by example in pretty much the entire OT to blast 'em like Moses and Joshua, and since god in unchanging (Hebrews 6:17, Hebrews 13:8, James 1:17, Malachi 3:6, Psalm 102:25-27, and Psalm 119:89) how could a person who believes the bible is the inerrant word of god ever square this circle without lying and expect to be taken seriously by people who do not base or draw their ethics or morals for a book that calls for so much suffering and wickedness in both the OT and NT? Coincidentally, if you advise the commander to not bomb the village, that is the humanist in you. The bible says blow 'em up (Numbers 25:1-9 and he is unchanging remember?). You made a moral decision independent of the bible so why do you even need it to begin with? Also, bear in mind who is attributed to the phrase "kill them all and let god sort it out" (Arnaud Amalric) and the context in which he was saying it.


(10-11-2015 11:36 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  The second roll of a chaplain is to provide religious services to the service members. If a service member needs spiritual counseling, a baptism, or anything else only an ordained leader in their faith can perform it would be a chaplain who would provide those services in order to keep moral high.

Did you mean moral or morale? Those are 2 different things. Nothing that you offer would make a person less likely to kill an unarmed person or behave in a more "moral" fashion. Additionally, if you believe that god wants a personal relationship with everyone (IF, you haven't said this but IF you think this) then you are nothing more than a middle man. If god wants a personal relationship, he can have it. He's friggin' GOD. Speaking through another person is not personal.

(10-11-2015 11:36 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Third responsibility is to ensure a service member's freedom of religion is protected. An example of this would be if a Muslim was forced to eat at a chow hall and the facility only served pork. A chaplain would make arrangements for that individual to accommodate their religious requirements.

Great, but if the military didn't have chaplains, would this even be a problem to begin with? And where were the chaplains when gays were being dismissed for crawling up in the "wrong" foxhole? There may have been some, but none that I ever heard of. You take an oath to defend America from all enemies, foreign and domestic. Wouldn't a person depriving a citizen a constitutional right make that person an enemy? If this is the case, shouldn't the higher ranking men be taking care of this in any event? Why does a chaplain need to go to bat for the muslim soldier? This shouldn't even be happening.

Also, flip it around. If an Imam in the military began preaching Wahabi Fundamentalism (which is his constitutional right) would you support it and defend him for preaching kill the infidels? Get rid of all religious figures in the military and this will not even be an issue.

(10-11-2015 11:36 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  This is one thing that I found lacking in the military in regards to atheists. The military will go out of the way to accommodate people of religion but there seems to be a double standard towards atheist.

Welcome to our reality. Try living as a non believer and that may give you some perspective as to the outrage we have to see every day and we don't take the course of action that is so often shown to us. The angry atheists aren't angry at god, they are angry at the assholes who follow him (I am not saying that all followers are assholes, I know that a majority are awesome people). I greatly appreciate your interest in protecting all faiths or lack thereof, not enough people like you around.

Bucky hit the nail on the head here:
Quote:But that presents an inherent conflict of interest. Why are YOUR ethics and morals assumed to be the "correct" ones ?

There are countless recent examples where military base commanders hold religiously related events, and FORCE attendance, (even if they *say* it might somehow be optional).
http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/...-internet/
Thank you for the moral/morale correction. Typo on my part. I have asked the questions about religious figures in the military. The consensus that I have heard is that chaplains are so important to the morale of the unit that the military have found that the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. Due to the unique demands of the military, chaplains are essential to the morale of the unit. However they are supposed to check their evangelistic desires at the door. They should not be preaching the gospels to atheists in order to convert them. They are to be simply a resource that is provided by the military to assist those who DESIRE it.

Yes, there are highly trained professionals who specialize in grief counseling, marriage counseling, depression, or anger management. The problem with these sources are that they cannot provide many of the spiritual services that an ecclesiastically ordained person can. If a catholic Marine wants to go to confession before he goes out on a dangerous patrol who will provide that to him? Only a catholic priest has the credentials to do that.

Another problem is that the military currently do not have positions for these counselors to provide counseling services in combat environments. Unfortunately, if an atheist solider is in some FOB in the mountains of Afghanistan and is messed up because his squad was obliterated in an ambush, a chaplain may be the best trained person available to help him get through the survivor's guilt.
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10-11-2015, 03:35 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 11:36 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 10:46 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Why is the US government paying for chaplains ?
It is antithetical to patriotic American values, which separate religion from the state.
Military chaplains are used for several reasons but the center of everything a chaplain does is to maintain moral within the unit. First role is to advise the commander on things ethical and moral. It doesn't even have to be religious in nature. An example of this would be if a commander was planning to carry out an artillery strike on a village because it was a known strong hold for the enemy. It would be a chaplain who would be responsible to advise the commander if it could harm or damage the moral of the service members. I agree that anybody can give that type of advice and it doesn't necessarily have to be a chaplain but this is an extreme example to show how a chaplain may advise a commander.

The second roll of a chaplain is to provide religious services to the service members. If a service member needs spiritual counseling, a baptism, or anything else only an ordained leader in their faith can perform it would be a chaplain who would provide those services in order to keep moral high.

Third responsibility is to ensure a service member's freedom of religion is protected. An example of this would be if a Muslim was forced to eat at a chow hall and the facility only served pork. A chaplain would make arrangements for that individual to accommodate their religious requirements.

This is one thing that I found lacking in the military in regards to atheists. The military will go out of the way to accommodate people of religion but there seems to be a double standard towards atheist.

The idea that religion is the source of morality is infuriating to atheists because it so clearly is not the source of morality.

Any morality espoused by Christianity pre-dates Christianity by millennia. As the saying goes, "What is good in the Bible is not original and what is original is not good."

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-11-2015, 03:35 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 03:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 11:36 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Military chaplains are used for several reasons but the center of everything a chaplain does is to maintain moral within the unit. First role is to advise the commander on things ethical and moral. It doesn't even have to be religious in nature. An example of this would be if a commander was planning to carry out an artillery strike on a village because it was a known strong hold for the enemy. It would be a chaplain who would be responsible to advise the commander if it could harm or damage the moral of the service members. I agree that anybody can give that type of advice and it doesn't necessarily have to be a chaplain but this is an extreme example to show how a chaplain may advise a commander.

The second roll of a chaplain is to provide religious services to the service members. If a service member needs spiritual counseling, a baptism, or anything else only an ordained leader in their faith can perform it would be a chaplain who would provide those services in order to keep moral high.

Third responsibility is to ensure a service member's freedom of religion is protected. An example of this would be if a Muslim was forced to eat at a chow hall and the facility only served pork. A chaplain would make arrangements for that individual to accommodate their religious requirements.

This is one thing that I found lacking in the military in regards to atheists. The military will go out of the way to accommodate people of religion but there seems to be a double standard towards atheist.

The idea that religion is the source of morality is infuriating to atheists because it so clearly is not the source of morality.

Any morality espoused by Christianity pre-dates Christianity by millennia. As the saying goes, "What is good in the Bible is not original and what is original is not good."
It was a typo. I meant morale not moral.
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10-11-2015, 03:42 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 03:35 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 03:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  The idea that religion is the source of morality is infuriating to atheists because it so clearly is not the source of morality.

Any morality espoused by Christianity pre-dates Christianity by millennia. As the saying goes, "What is good in the Bible is not original and what is original is not good."
It was a typo. I meant morale not moral.

OK, but my point stands. Drinking Beverage

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10-11-2015, 03:42 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
The last time I spoke with a chaplain was when I was in danger of dying in a hospital. I liked him because he never once brought up the subject of religion.

As an atheist I really don't want to talk about religion. To me it is like a fantasy video game, which I see as useless and a waste of time. Sometimes one must deal with them here and it can be painful to me. Not because I have been damaged or hurt by theists, like many of my American counterparts, but because of my own attitude toward what I consider ridiculous.

That is possibly what you should consider, many atheists see religion as ridiculous. Therefore don't mention it. No matter how much you'd like to. You may simply earn their contempt and distrust.

IHTH.

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