Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
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10-11-2015, 04:57 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
I was never forced to do anything religious in the AF, but I understand that others have experienced otherwise.
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10-11-2015, 05:57 PM
Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 04:55 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 12:51 PM)KUSA Wrote:  I've been out of the military for a while now so I don't know if they are still doing this but. When we were in formation and there was public prayer, everyone was forced to bow their heads.

Never heard of such a thing in the USN in the early 80's. The only time there was any invocation whatsoever from the chaplain was when the Captain was addressing us or over the PA on Sunday morning. The invocation was always secular and in formation you sure as hell didn't bow your head or even move a muscle. There was nothing restful about Parade Rest.

I was in the Navy in the 90s. During boot camp in Orlando FL, we had to bow our heads in public prayer often. Even at our pass in review with all the families watching we had to bow in prayer. We were told that they didn't give a fuck if we believed in God or not that we were going to bow our heads.
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10-11-2015, 06:01 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 05:57 PM)KUSA Wrote:  I was in the Navy in the 90s. During boot camp in Orlando FL, we had to bow our heads in public prayer often. Even at our pass in review with all the families watching we had to bow in prayer. We were told that they didn't give a fuck if we believed in God or not that we were going to bow our heads.

Really? That does not inspire confidence in this secular ally.

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10-11-2015, 06:04 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 05:57 PM)KUSA Wrote:  I was in the Navy in the 90s. During boot camp in Orlando FL, we had to bow our heads in public prayer often. Even at our pass in review with all the families watching we had to bow in prayer. We were told that they didn't give a fuck if we believed in God or not that we were going to bow our heads.

I was RCPO in bootcamp at San Diego. We never did such a thing not even at pass and review. I did nuke power school at Orlando and never heard of such a thing there either. Sounds to me like your Company Commander committed a reportable offense.

#sigh
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10-11-2015, 06:05 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 12:29 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I think there are a large number of chaplains who cannot separate themselves from evangelizing. CHAPLAINS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE TRYING TO CONVERT PEOPLE TO CHRISTIANITY! They are to be a resource for people who are already Christian.

No.

From Wikipedia:
bolding is mine

A military chaplain ministers to military personnel and, in most cases, their families and civilians working for the military. In some cases they will also work with local civilians within a military area of operations.

Although the term chaplain originally had Christian roots,[1] it is generally used today in military organizations to describe all professionals specially trained to serve any spiritual need, regardless of religious affiliation. In addition to offering pastoral care to individuals, and supporting their religious rights and needs, military chaplains may also advise the executive on issues of religion, and ethics, morale and morals as affected by religion. They may also liaise with local religious leaders in an effort to understand the role of religion as both a factor in hostility and war and as a force for reconciliation and peace.[2]

Military chaplains normally represent a religion or faith group but work with military personnel of all faiths and none. Some countries, like the Netherlands and Belgium,[3] also employ humanist chaplains who offer a non-religious approach to chaplain support.

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10-11-2015, 06:09 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 11:36 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  If a service member needs spiritual counseling, a baptism, ...

Can a Jewish, Muslim, or Sikh chaplain baptize someone? Can a Jewish, Muslim, or Sikh chaplain give communion or last rites to a Catholic? I'm serious. I really don't know the answer.

#sigh
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10-11-2015, 06:16 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 04:15 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 04:02 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I believe the point you were trying to make is how effective is a military chaplain to an atheist soldier during a tragedy? I would have to say that they can be very effective. Some chaplains (although not all) have secular training and experience in counseling and psychology and are completely able to separate their religious platitudes to assist someone. I do not think anyone here appreciates the "young and dumb" comments about the military service members. I have Marines in my command who have college degrees from very prestigious universities.

My point is that your religious BS is useless to BOTH the religious and nonreligious.
It may be a temporary "boost" but the numbers (of suicides) prove it fails in the long run.

I probably should have said "young and naieve".

The military adventures of the US in recent years have caused the deaths of tens of thousands ... all for nothing. You are chosing to be a part of that system, .. in fact to support it. How it that "ethical", or even "Christian" ?
First, are you suggesting that a chaplain is incapable of using his/her secular knowledge or experience to provide assistance to an atheist....or anyone for that matter. Just because someone claims to be a Christian, their secular education in counseling and psychology is void?

Second, what does national policy have to do will providing support to people. Are you suggesting that it is unethical and immoral to help someone suffering from PTSD because they fought in a war you deemed to be unethical or are you claiming that the ethical standards of a chaplain serving in the military is so substandard that they are unfit to give solders help?
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10-11-2015, 06:19 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 03:03 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Yes, there are highly trained professionals who specialize in grief counseling, marriage counseling, depression, or anger management. The problem with these sources are that they cannot provide many of the spiritual services that an ecclesiastically ordained person can.

If the "ecclesiastically ordained person" is not also trained in secular counseling then that person isn't qualified to offer counseling. You are (not unexpectedly) placing a very high value on "spiritual services" but, in my opinion, we'd be better off providing qualified counselors and letting individuals deal with their religious beliefs privately.

Quote: If a catholic Marine wants to go to confession before he goes out on a dangerous patrol who will provide that to him? Only a catholic priest has the credentials to do that.

But they don't have Catholic priests attached to every unit. No matter what denomination the chaplain is he will not be able to meet the needs of everyone under his purview. It seems like it would be far better to have secular counselors available so that everybody is treated equally rather than the situation as it is today.

Quote:Another problem is that the military currently do not have positions for these counselors to provide counseling services in combat environments. Unfortunately, if an atheist solider is in some FOB in the mountains of Afghanistan and is messed up because his squad was obliterated in an ambush, a chaplain may be the best trained person available to help him get through the survivor's guilt.

Again, unless the chaplain is actually trained as a counselor his training is essentially worthless. Any empathetic individual is likely to be able to do just as well. As you touched on, but maybe didn't quite mean the same way, the fact that the chaplain may be the only person the atheist can turn to IS the problem. You've made an excellent case for eliminating all religious positions in the military and replacing them with secular counselors.

Many of your posts imply that since chaplains are what are available we have to figure out a way to use them wisely. I reject that idea. The system needs to be changed.

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10-11-2015, 06:24 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 06:09 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 11:36 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  If a service member needs spiritual counseling, a baptism, ...

Can a Jewish, Muslim, or Sikh chaplain baptize someone? Can a Jewish, Muslim, or Sikh chaplain give communion or last rites to a Catholic? I'm serious. I really don't know the answer.

On M*A*S*H, Father Mulcahy performed a bris. Consider

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10-11-2015, 08:04 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 04:15 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 04:02 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I believe the point you were trying to make is how effective is a military chaplain to an atheist soldier during a tragedy? I would have to say that they can be very effective. Some chaplains (although not all) have secular training and experience in counseling and psychology and are completely able to separate their religious platitudes to assist someone. I do not think anyone here appreciates the "young and dumb" comments about the military service members. I have Marines in my command who have college degrees from very prestigious universities.

My point is that your religious BS is useless to BOTH the religious and nonreligious.
It may be a temporary "boost" but the numbers (of suicides) prove it fails in the long run.

I probably should have said "young and naieve".

The military adventures of the US in recent years have caused the deaths of tens of thousands ... all for nothing. You are chosing to be a part of that system, .. in fact to support it. How it that "ethical", or even "Christian" ?
So how is secular counseling "religious BS"?

Second. Is there any other example other than suicide that you find secular counseling aka."religious BS" to be useless coming from a chaplain?
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