Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
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10-11-2015, 08:09 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 05:57 PM)KUSA Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 04:55 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Never heard of such a thing in the USN in the early 80's. The only time there was any invocation whatsoever from the chaplain was when the Captain was addressing us or over the PA on Sunday morning. The invocation was always secular and in formation you sure as hell didn't bow your head or even move a muscle. There was nothing restful about Parade Rest.

I was in the Navy in the 90s. During boot camp in Orlando FL, we had to bow our heads in public prayer often. Even at our pass in review with all the families watching we had to bow in prayer. We were told that they didn't give a fuck if we believed in God or not that we were going to bow our heads.
A couple months ago I was involved in a retirement ceremony for a Navy captain. When the chaplain did the invocation everyone had to bow their heads.
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10-11-2015, 08:14 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 06:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 06:09 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Can a Jewish, Muslim, or Sikh chaplain baptize someone? Can a Jewish, Muslim, or Sikh chaplain give communion or last rites to a Catholic? I'm serious. I really don't know the answer.

On M*A*S*H, Father Mulcahy performed a bris. Consider

Precedent.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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10-11-2015, 08:14 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 06:05 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 12:29 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I think there are a large number of chaplains who cannot separate themselves from evangelizing. CHAPLAINS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE TRYING TO CONVERT PEOPLE TO CHRISTIANITY! They are to be a resource for people who are already Christian.

No.

From Wikipedia:
bolding is mine

A military chaplain ministers to military personnel and, in most cases, their families and civilians working for the military. In some cases they will also work with local civilians within a military area of operations.

Although the term chaplain originally had Christian roots,[1] it is generally used today in military organizations to describe all professionals specially trained to serve any spiritual need, regardless of religious affiliation. In addition to offering pastoral care to individuals, and supporting their religious rights and needs, military chaplains may also advise the executive on issues of religion, and ethics, morale and morals as affected by religion. They may also liaise with local religious leaders in an effort to understand the role of religion as both a factor in hostility and war and as a force for reconciliation and peace.[2]

Military chaplains normally represent a religion or faith group but work with military personnel of all faiths and none. Some countries, like the Netherlands and Belgium,[3] also employ humanist chaplains who offer a non-religious approach to chaplain support.
The reply to your post agreed with my statement. Chaplains are not supposed to preach to people outside of their faith with the intent of converting them. They can still preach to people within their faith or anyone else of that matter who desires it.
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10-11-2015, 08:17 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 06:09 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 11:36 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  If a service member needs spiritual counseling, a baptism, ...

Can a Jewish, Muslim, or Sikh chaplain baptize someone? Can a Jewish, Muslim, or Sikh chaplain give communion or last rites to a Catholic? I'm serious. I really don't know the answer.
No. That is where the ecclesiastical certification comes in. If it weren't the case then there would be no need for different denominations of chaplains. In the case of a catholic baptism, it has to be done by a catholic priest in order to align with catholic doctrine.

However I might add that if a catholic soldier came to me with a request to be baptized and I was the only chaplain around, I would be happy to honor the request. Although I would have to inform him that the Catholic Church may not recognize it.
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10-11-2015, 08:24 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 08:09 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  A couple months ago I was involved in a retirement ceremony for a Navy captain. When the chaplain did the invocation everyone had to bow their heads.

How was that enforced? Peer pressure? I never bowed my head to bullshit and I never will and nobody gave a fuck because no one was stupid enough to ask me and the rest of my Company that. I was never asked or even ordered to bow my head. My Company Commander was by the book. I mean he was always drunk even when he was by the book. What if one of you didn't bow? Mayhem?

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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10-11-2015, 08:25 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 06:16 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 04:15 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  My point is that your religious BS is useless to BOTH the religious and nonreligious.
It may be a temporary "boost" but the numbers (of suicides) prove it fails in the long run.

I probably should have said "young and naieve".

The military adventures of the US in recent years have caused the deaths of tens of thousands ... all for nothing. You are chosing to be a part of that system, .. in fact to support it. How it that "ethical", or even "Christian" ?

First, are you suggesting that a chaplain is incapable of using his/her secular knowledge or experience to provide assistance to an atheist....or anyone for that matter. Just because someone claims to be a Christian, their secular education in counseling and psychology is void?

Second, what does national policy have to do will providing support to people. Are you suggesting that it is unethical and immoral to help someone suffering from PTSD because they fought in a war you deemed to be unethical or are you claiming that the ethical standards of a chaplain serving in the military is so substandard that they are unfit to give solders help?

The numbers show that whatever it is you people do, it doesn't work.
You said it was your job to support morale. If the national policy is stupid, you are supporting stupidity.
a. 50,000 + people killed in Vietnam. For what ? For nothing.
b. Thousands killed in Iraq and Afghanistan ... which was the impetus for ISIS, and accomplished NOTHING.

The military can have counsellors or whatever they need.
Religious chaplains are unconstitutional. If the CAUSE is really THAT important, (ie REAL national defense), then peoples' morale doesn't need "supporting".
You're a "tool" of the military-industrial complex, and the fat old men in Washington who sit at desks, whore around and tell secrets to their lovers, and whose kids generally don't go to combat.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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10-11-2015, 08:27 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
Jason - I realize I posted four links without any intro... but you asked for examples of discrimination and hostility. Those are four articles I got (selected from among the first seven results) just by typing in a search for USAFA religious discrimination.

The good news is that there seem to be more like you, nowadays, and USAFA even appears to have an active Humanist group which has fought to combat some of the hostility I experienced when I expressed my rejection of Christianity at USAFA in '94.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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10-11-2015, 08:32 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 06:19 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 03:03 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Yes, there are highly trained professionals who specialize in grief counseling, marriage counseling, depression, or anger management. The problem with these sources are that they cannot provide many of the spiritual services that an ecclesiastically ordained person can.

If the "ecclesiastically ordained person" is not also trained in secular counseling then that person isn't qualified to offer counseling. You are (not unexpectedly) placing a very high value on "spiritual services" but, in my opinion, we'd be better off providing qualified counselors and letting individuals deal with their religious beliefs privately.

Quote: If a catholic Marine wants to go to confession before he goes out on a dangerous patrol who will provide that to him? Only a catholic priest has the credentials to do that.

But they don't have Catholic priests attached to every unit. No matter what denomination the chaplain is he will not be able to meet the needs of everyone under his purview. It seems like it would be far better to have secular counselors available so that everybody is treated equally rather than the situation as it is today.

Quote:Another problem is that the military currently do not have positions for these counselors to provide counseling services in combat environments. Unfortunately, if an atheist solider is in some FOB in the mountains of Afghanistan and is messed up because his squad was obliterated in an ambush, a chaplain may be the best trained person available to help him get through the survivor's guilt.

Again, unless the chaplain is actually trained as a counselor his training is essentially worthless. Any empathetic individual is likely to be able to do just as well. As you touched on, but maybe didn't quite mean the same way, the fact that the chaplain may be the only person the atheist can turn to IS the problem. You've made an excellent case for eliminating all religious positions in the military and replacing them with secular counselors.

Many of your posts imply that since chaplains are what are available we have to figure out a way to use them wisely. I reject that idea. The system needs to be changed.
Perhaps the system does need to be changed. I think having secular counseling professionals would do a lot of good. However there is one quality that unfortunately is ONLY given to military chaplains. That is absolute discretion. Chaplains are protected by law and cannot be forced in ANY circumstances to disclose ANYTHING to ANYONE for ANY REASON. Even secular professionals don't have that protection....yet. Even if a Marine came to a chaplain and said that he was planning on killing his commander and laid out a detailed plan on how he was going to do it, all the chaplain can do is call the commander and say "I really don't think you should come in to work tomorrow". So many atheist turn to chaplains simply to talk about personal things they wish to be kept secret. Even if it is just simply to vent frustration or find a shoulder to cry on.
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10-11-2015, 08:35 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 08:17 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 06:09 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Can a Jewish, Muslim, or Sikh chaplain baptize someone? Can a Jewish, Muslim, or Sikh chaplain give communion or last rites to a Catholic? I'm serious. I really don't know the answer.
No. That is where the ecclesiastical certification comes in. If it weren't the case then there would be no need for different denominations of chaplains. In the case of a catholic baptism, it has to be done by a catholic priest in order to align with catholic doctrine.

However I might add that if a catholic soldier came to me with a request to be baptized and I was the only chaplain around, I would be happy to honor the request. Although I would have to inform him that the Catholic Church may not recognize it.

Can a chaplain be ordained in multiple religious rituals? He should be able to. No?.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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10-11-2015, 08:35 PM (This post was last modified: 10-11-2015 08:39 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
Anyone can baptize, according to the Catholics. They even cooked up "baptism of desire", .... kind of like a freebe, if you want it bad enough. Such nonsense these people waste their lives on.
Catechism of the Catholic Church :

V. WHO CAN BAPTIZE?

1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon.57 In case of necessity, anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize58 , by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.

Cuz the creator of 600 sextillion stars REALLY cares about a few drops of water. Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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