Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
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10-11-2015, 08:37 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 08:24 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 08:09 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  A couple months ago I was involved in a retirement ceremony for a Navy captain. When the chaplain did the invocation everyone had to bow their heads.

How was that enforced? Peer pressure? I never bowed my head to bullshit and I never will and nobody gave a fuck because no one was stupid enough to ask me and the rest of my Company that. I was never asked or even ordered to bow my head. My Company Commander was by the book. I mean he was always drunk even when he was by the book. What if one of you didn't bow? Mayhem?
It was the Sgtmaj who gave the instruction. He wanted uniformity and sharpness. He made the words "let us pray" a prepatory command for "bow your head". I think it wasn't necessary peer pressure that was to blame but rather fear of the wrath of the Sgtmaj. Either way, it doesn't seem right.
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10-11-2015, 08:50 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 08:25 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 06:16 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  First, are you suggesting that a chaplain is incapable of using his/her secular knowledge or experience to provide assistance to an atheist....or anyone for that matter. Just because someone claims to be a Christian, their secular education in counseling and psychology is void?

Second, what does national policy have to do will providing support to people. Are you suggesting that it is unethical and immoral to help someone suffering from PTSD because they fought in a war you deemed to be unethical or are you claiming that the ethical standards of a chaplain serving in the military is so substandard that they are unfit to give solders help?

The numbers show that whatever it is you people do, it doesn't work.
You said it was your job to support morale. If the national policy is stupid, you are supporting stupidity.
a. 50,000 + people killed in Vietnam. For what ? For nothing.
b. Thousands killed in Iraq and Afghanistan ... which was the impetus for ISIS, and accomplished NOTHING.

The military can have counsellors or whatever they need.
Religious chaplains are unconstitutional. If the CAUSE is really THAT important, (ie REAL national defense), then peoples' morale doesn't need "supporting".
You're a "tool" of the military-industrial complex, and the fat old men in Washington who sit at desks, whore around and tell secrets to their lovers, and whose kids generally don't go to combat.
Ok Bucky, I get it. You are anti-military and you believe anyone who serves in the military are unethical and immoral and deserve everything they get. Is that what you are saying? You seem to know a lot about the realities of what service members and their families endure. Can you please tell me how long you have served in the military? I imagine a 22 year old from California must be junior enlisted. Actually since you obviously corrected everyone on this forum that we fought ISIS in Iraq and Afghanistan rather than Al' Queda and the Taliban you are highly educated from a prestigious university so you have to be an officer...right?
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10-11-2015, 08:51 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 08:27 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Jason - I realize I posted four links without any intro... but you asked for examples of discrimination and hostility. Those are four articles I got (selected from among the first seven results) just by typing in a search for USAFA religious discrimination.

The good news is that there seem to be more like you, nowadays, and USAFA even appears to have an active Humanist group which has fought to combat some of the hostility I experienced when I expressed my rejection of Christianity at USAFA in '94.
Checking them out as we speak. Thanks. I appreciate it.
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10-11-2015, 09:00 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 08:50 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 08:25 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The numbers show that whatever it is you people do, it doesn't work.
You said it was your job to support morale. If the national policy is stupid, you are supporting stupidity.
a. 50,000 + people killed in Vietnam. For what ? For nothing.
b. Thousands killed in Iraq and Afghanistan ... which was the impetus for ISIS, and accomplished NOTHING.

The military can have counsellors or whatever they need.
Religious chaplains are unconstitutional. If the CAUSE is really THAT important, (ie REAL national defense), then peoples' morale doesn't need "supporting".
You're a "tool" of the military-industrial complex, and the fat old men in Washington who sit at desks, whore around and tell secrets to their lovers, and whose kids generally don't go to combat.
Ok Bucky, I get it. You are anti-military and you believe anyone who serves in the military are unethical and immoral and deserve everything they get. Is that what you are saying? You seem to know a lot about the realities of what service members and their families endure. Can you please tell me how long you have served in the military? I imagine a 22 year old from California must be junior enlisted. Actually since you obviously corrected everyone on this forum that we fought ISIS in Iraq and Afghanistan rather than Al' Queda and the Taliban you are highly educated from a prestigious university so you have to be an officer...right?

All totally wrong. Totally.

I never said we fought ISIS. I said that those stupid wars promoted the rise of ISIS.
Read and learn : http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/04/i...-bush-isis

I'm not anti-military. I'm against stupid useless military adventures that waste young lives for nothing. Like the Vietnam war. 50,000 + dead, countless families disrupted, then McNamara says it was a mistake. You say your job is to keep up morale. How do you decide WHICH war is worth keeping up morale for ? The good ones AND the stupid ones ? Like you can chose, right ? Haha. I'm saying putting yourself in the position you have, is essentially an unethical choice. You have given up your freedom to the commanders.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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10-11-2015, 09:10 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 09:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 08:50 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Ok Bucky, I get it. You are anti-military and you believe anyone who serves in the military are unethical and immoral and deserve everything they get. Is that what you are saying? You seem to know a lot about the realities of what service members and their families endure. Can you please tell me how long you have served in the military? I imagine a 22 year old from California must be junior enlisted. Actually since you obviously corrected everyone on this forum that we fought ISIS in Iraq and Afghanistan rather than Al' Queda and the Taliban you are highly educated from a prestigious university so you have to be an officer...right?

All totally wrong. Totally.

I never said we fought ISIS. I said that those stupid wars promoted the rise of ISIS.
Read and learn : http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/04/i...-bush-isis

I'm not anti-military. I'm against stupid useless military adventures that waste young lives for nothing. Like the Vietnam war. 50,000 + dead, countless families disrupted, then McNamara says it was a mistake. You say your job is to keep up morale. How do you decide WHICH war is worth keeping up morale for ? The good ones AND the stupid ones ? Like you can chose, right ? Haha. I'm saying putting yourself in the position you have, is essentially an unethical choice. You have given up your freedom to the commanders.
I think you don't understand that it is not about the wars or the policies or even the people who set them.....its about the service member. Do you really think a Marine on the front line really cares about policy? A good Marine would be only worried about his fellow Marines and how not to let them down. A chaplain's priorities are no different. They are focused on the service member and worry only about how they can help them and not anyone down. You have a lot to learn about the military my friend.
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10-11-2015, 09:12 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
Glancing over the conversation, I think everyone is making this into something bigger than it is. As with the general population, a significant number of people in the military are religious. Because I want my guys to feel like they're taken care of, even as an evil heathen, I'm not gonna get all bent out of shape because there are chaplains running around providing services that are religious in nature. Then again, I've never considered my agnosticism/atheism to be self defining for me. Merely the way I view the world. I've never felt forced into anything, but if everyone feels like bowing their heads in prayer, I'll often join them right along with the Pagan in my unit. Hell, I'll lead the prayer, I don't care. I just don't take that stuff personally. I don't like to over complicate things. If I have a goal to achieve, and playing along with the crowd is the most rational way to achieve that goal, then I'm going to play along without hesitation. In that, maybe I'm not a good representative of other military atheists. As I've said many times on this board, life is about putting on masks in an effort to blend in, and this is one of the less significant masks I have to wear.

At any rate, my opinion is that being a good chaplain to the non religious is more or less dependent on the same things that being a good chaplain to the religious entails. Earn our respect, and we'll open up to you. One of the biggest problems with some chaplains, from the perspective of a front line soldier, is that despite their best intentions they don't always know what's going on. When we see the chaplain, it's often back at the FOB walking around trying to mingle. I realize his intentions are good, but when we get back from a couple weeks in the rain and see a chaplain in a nice, clean uniform that looks like he actually showered that week, as far as we're concerned he's just another pog (people other than grunts). If you want us to respect you, regardless of our religious affiliation or lack thereof, don't be "that guy." Seek us out at 3am when we're practicing blackout driving, or when we're out on mission for the 3rd day straight tired, wet, wishing we had another change of socks. In our sleep deprived state we might neglect to be tactful and tell you to go fuck yourself, but that doesn't mean we don't respect you for coming out and getting tired and dirty with us, so don't take it personally Smile. And if we need chaplain services, we'll be more likely to seek you out if you make a habit of seeking us out when shit sucks, rather than when we're on one of our rare visits back to the tents just trying to relax and catch up on some sleep.

'Murican Canadian
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10-11-2015, 09:19 PM (This post was last modified: 10-11-2015 09:45 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 08:35 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Can a chaplain be ordained in multiple religious rituals? He should be able to. No?.

Well, I AM.




#sigh
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10-11-2015, 09:28 PM (This post was last modified: 10-11-2015 09:41 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 09:10 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 09:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  All totally wrong. Totally.

I never said we fought ISIS. I said that those stupid wars promoted the rise of ISIS.
Read and learn : http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/04/i...-bush-isis

I'm not anti-military. I'm against stupid useless military adventures that waste young lives for nothing. Like the Vietnam war. 50,000 + dead, countless families disrupted, then McNamara says it was a mistake. You say your job is to keep up morale. How do you decide WHICH war is worth keeping up morale for ? The good ones AND the stupid ones ? Like you can chose, right ? Haha. I'm saying putting yourself in the position you have, is essentially an unethical choice. You have given up your freedom to the commanders.
I think you don't understand that it is not about the wars or the policies or even the people who set them.....its about the service member. Do you really think a Marine on the front line really cares about policy? A good Marine would be only worried about his fellow Marines and how not to let them down. A chaplain's priorities are no different. They are focused on the service member and worry only about how they can help them and not anyone down. You have a lot to learn about the military my friend.

Now YOU are calling the marines stupid. Yes, I would entirely expect a marine to care about what he or she is doing. Remember the :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre
You MUST be concerned about what you are doing or promoting. But I see you really HAVE given over your brain to support whatever it is they think they are up to, and say "Oh. I'm just supporting the soldiers".
Sounds like a Nazi chaplain could have said the same thing. I will never be willing to do that.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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10-11-2015, 09:33 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 09:12 PM)yakherder Wrote:  Glancing over the conversation, I think everyone is making this into something bigger than it is. As with the general population, a significant number of people in the military are religious. Because I want my guys to feel like they're taken care of, even as an evil heathen, I'm not gonna get all bent out of shape because there are chaplains running around providing services that are religious in nature. Then again, I've never considered my agnosticism/atheism to be self defining for me. Merely the way I view the world. I've never felt forced into anything, but if everyone feels like bowing their heads in prayer, I'll often join them right along with the Pagan in my unit. Hell, I'll lead the prayer, I don't care. I just don't take that stuff personally. I don't like to over complicate things. If I have a goal to achieve, and playing along with the crowd is the most rational way to achieve that goal, then I'm going to play along without hesitation. In that, maybe I'm not a good representative of other military atheists. As I've said many times on this board, life is about putting on masks in an effort to blend in, and this is one of the less significant masks I have to wear.

At any rate, my opinion is that being a good chaplain to the non religious is more or less dependent on the same things that being a good chaplain to the religious entails. Earn our respect, and we'll open up to you. One of the biggest problems with some chaplains, from the perspective of a front line soldier, is that despite their best intentions they don't always know what's going on. When we see the chaplain, it's often back at the FOB walking around trying to mingle. I realize his intentions are good, but when we get back from a couple weeks in the rain and see a chaplain in a nice, clean uniform that looks like he actually showered that week, as far as we're concerned he's just another pog (people other than grunts). If you want us to respect you, regardless of our religious affiliation or lack thereof, don't be "that guy." Seek us out at 3am when we're practicing blackout driving, or when we're out on mission for the 3rd day straight tired, wet, wishing we had another change of socks. In our sleep deprived state we might neglect to be tactful and tell you to go fuck yourself, but that doesn't mean we don't respect you for coming out and getting tired and dirty with us, so don't take it personally Smile. And if we need chaplain services, we'll be more likely to seek you out if you make a habit of seeking us out when shit sucks, rather than when we're on one of our rare visits back to the tents just trying to relax and catch up on some sleep.
Awesome advice! Thank you!
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10-11-2015, 09:36 PM (This post was last modified: 10-11-2015 09:44 PM by Momsurroundedbyboys.)
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 08:17 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  However I might add that if a catholic soldier came to me with a request to be baptized and I was the only chaplain around, I would be happy to honor the request. Although I would have to inform him that the Catholic Church may not recognize it.

Catholics are baptized at birth or as children. If you are baptized once by another religion they don't do it again. Once you've been confirmed then you're a Catholic.

So a Catholic would make no such request. Ever.

I'm sure they'll cover the relevant bits of what you can and can't do in Chaplin school. Smile


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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