Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
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10-11-2015, 10:44 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 10:31 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Let's all try to remember this is personal issues and support.

What sorta shit you worried about mama?

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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10-11-2015, 10:51 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 09:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 08:50 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Ok Bucky, I get it. You are anti-military and you believe anyone who serves in the military are unethical and immoral and deserve everything they get. Is that what you are saying? You seem to know a lot about the realities of what service members and their families endure. Can you please tell me how long you have served in the military? I imagine a 22 year old from California must be junior enlisted. Actually since you obviously corrected everyone on this forum that we fought ISIS in Iraq and Afghanistan rather than Al' Queda and the Taliban you are highly educated from a prestigious university so you have to be an officer...right?

All totally wrong. Totally.

I never said we fought ISIS. I said that those stupid wars promoted the rise of ISIS.
Read and learn : http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/04/i...-bush-isis

I'm not anti-military. I'm against stupid useless military adventures that waste young lives for nothing. Like the Vietnam war. 50,000 + dead, countless families disrupted, then McNamara says it was a mistake. You say your job is to keep up morale. How do you decide WHICH war is worth keeping up morale for ? The good ones AND the stupid ones ? Like you can chose, right ? Haha. I'm saying putting yourself in the position you have, is essentially an unethical choice. You have given up your freedom to the commanders.

My $0.02 Bucky. My cousin was in Iraq for several years and part of it was commanding a training camp for the Iraqi Civil Defense Corps. He was intimately involved in dealing and networking with the locals. Overwhelmingly, they are better off than they were under Hussein and my cousin could testify to that. I would hardly say those who lost their lives in Iraq were a waste. That article completely ignored the tremendous suffering under Hussein. It was nothing but piss and vinegar and did not actually address where ISIS came from but instead does a gross oversimplification. If you are going to call yourself a humanist, how can you say it was a waste? Do you think they were better off under Saddam? I loved the lecture Hitchens gives on the Axis of Evil where he specifically discusses the conditions of the Hussein regime. I find it is incumbent for humanists to oppose all forms of tyranny. I would love to see a world where jackasses like Hussein, Kissinger, and McNamara are in prison where they belong but I have an incredibly difficult time seeing how the US military having chaplains is even part of the discussion. I am proud my cousin can share his experiences that you never hear about on CNN where the people were genuinely relieved that Hussein was gone. That seems hardly the same as Vietnam (although you probably could make a strong case for that being a waste).

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10-11-2015, 10:53 PM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 10:44 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 10:31 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Let's all try to remember this is personal issues and support.

What sorta shit you worried about mama?

People just see the new posts and don't always see the section.

But I'm always worried that's what moms do. Or so I'm told.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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11-11-2015, 12:07 AM (This post was last modified: 11-11-2015 12:28 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 10:51 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 09:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  All totally wrong. Totally.

I never said we fought ISIS. I said that those stupid wars promoted the rise of ISIS.
Read and learn : http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/04/i...-bush-isis

I'm not anti-military. I'm against stupid useless military adventures that waste young lives for nothing. Like the Vietnam war. 50,000 + dead, countless families disrupted, then McNamara says it was a mistake. You say your job is to keep up morale. How do you decide WHICH war is worth keeping up morale for ? The good ones AND the stupid ones ? Like you can chose, right ? Haha. I'm saying putting yourself in the position you have, is essentially an unethical choice. You have given up your freedom to the commanders.

My $0.02 Bucky. My cousin was in Iraq for several years and part of it was commanding a training camp for the Iraqi Civil Defense Corps. He was intimately involved in dealing and networking with the locals. Overwhelmingly, they are better off than they were under Hussein and my cousin could testify to that. I would hardly say those who lost their lives in Iraq were a waste. That article completely ignored the tremendous suffering under Hussein. It was nothing but piss and vinegar and did not actually address where ISIS came from but instead does a gross oversimplification. If you are going to call yourself a humanist, how can you say it was a waste? Do you think they were better off under Saddam? I loved the lecture Hitchens gives on the Axis of Evil where he specifically discusses the conditions of the Hussein regime. I find it is incumbent for humanists to oppose all forms of tyranny. I would love to see a world where jackasses like Hussein, Kissinger, and McNamara are in prison where they belong but I have an incredibly difficult time seeing how the US military having chaplains is even part of the discussion. I am proud my cousin can share his experiences that you never hear about on CNN where the people were genuinely relieved that Hussein was gone. That seems hardly the same as Vietnam (although you probably could make a strong case for that being a waste).

I think that's a matter of opinion, and not universally shared. Things may have been "bad" under Hussein, but "nation building" (where it's not even begun to be ready for it) doesn't work. Bad can easily go to "worse". History have proven that many times. In order for that to work there have to be transparent institutions already in place, and they were not there. The Neo-cons were clueless about what to do AFTER they toppled him, and entered the war with lies about "yellow cake" How many people said "at least with him we had food and electricity". Hussein was not mass-killing people. 500,000 people AT LEAST died, because of the war. Were THEY better off ? http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comm...32742.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties...e_Iraq_War

The thing that appalled me was the 'compartmentalization' of beliefs "Oh we're just here to support the morale". I think for someone who claims to be an ethical person, that's a dangerous cop-out.
Anyone who supports the infrastructure is directly supporting the mission. There is no question they are given stupid missions, at times. Can someone in that situation 'excuse' themselves from a mission that they think is stupid ? If not, PUTTING themselves in that situation makes them incapable of an ethical choice, and it's a step down the road to the slippery slope.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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11-11-2015, 12:26 AM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 08:32 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Perhaps the system does need to be changed. I think having secular counseling professionals would do a lot of good. However there is one quality that unfortunately is ONLY given to military chaplains. That is absolute discretion. Chaplains are protected by law and cannot be forced in ANY circumstances to disclose ANYTHING to ANYONE for ANY REASON. Even secular professionals don't have that protection....yet. Even if a Marine came to a chaplain and said that he was planning on killing his commander and laid out a detailed plan on how he was going to do it, all the chaplain can do is call the commander and say "I really don't think you should come in to work tomorrow". So many atheist turn to chaplains simply to talk about personal things they wish to be kept secret. Even if it is just simply to vent frustration or find a shoulder to cry on.

It says there absolute discretion. i.e. you cannot be forced to reveal anything but you may choose to do so. I know Catholic priests aren't allowed to reveal stuff told to them in confession, which seems to be more what you're alluding to. But I'm pretty sure you could tell the guy that X person was plotting to kill him.

My problem with the absolute discretion thing is that that involves making a judgement call and it's one that's not being made by someone necessarily appropriately trained. For example, if the soldier confesses that he's suicidal and the chaplain keeps silent - is that really a good course of action? *Actually* IMO that decision shouldn't be up to the chaplain since he's not a shrink - he should escalate that to a shrink. If there's no shrink handy then a chaplain may well be the next best thing but I still have a major problem with leaving it to an untrained guy's judgement as to what to do and his decision is legally enshrined as unquestionable.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-11-2015, 12:47 AM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
Okay, I found the podcasts I was looking for.

Seth Andrews did a call-in show titled Atheists in the Military. It's not particularly relevant to chaplains in particular, but it gives a little slice of life for atheists vis-a-vis Christianity in the military.

David Smalley interviewed a Christian army chaplain (who called in with an atheist friend / service member on the line with him) on Dogma Debate. Like most Dogma Debate episodes this one's obscenely long and has more segments than just the interview, but the interview itself lasts a good long time. It starts almost at the beginning of the episode. The subject of the chaplain's duties, especially vis-a-vis atheists, starts at about 29 minutes in. Starting around 70 minutes in they stop talking about chaplaincy switch to debating religion specifically, and that might be less relevant to your interests.
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11-11-2015, 06:47 AM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(11-11-2015 12:26 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 08:32 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Perhaps the system does need to be changed. I think having secular counseling professionals would do a lot of good. However there is one quality that unfortunately is ONLY given to military chaplains. That is absolute discretion. Chaplains are protected by law and cannot be forced in ANY circumstances to disclose ANYTHING to ANYONE for ANY REASON. Even secular professionals don't have that protection....yet. Even if a Marine came to a chaplain and said that he was planning on killing his commander and laid out a detailed plan on how he was going to do it, all the chaplain can do is call the commander and say "I really don't think you should come in to work tomorrow". So many atheist turn to chaplains simply to talk about personal things they wish to be kept secret. Even if it is just simply to vent frustration or find a shoulder to cry on.

It says there absolute discretion. i.e. you cannot be forced to reveal anything but you may choose to do so. I know Catholic priests aren't allowed to reveal stuff told to them in confession, which seems to be more what you're alluding to. But I'm pretty sure you could tell the guy that X person was plotting to kill him.

My problem with the absolute discretion thing is that that involves making a judgement call and it's one that's not being made by someone necessarily appropriately trained. For example, if the soldier confesses that he's suicidal and the chaplain keeps silent - is that really a good course of action? *Actually* IMO that decision shouldn't be up to the chaplain since he's not a shrink - he should escalate that to a shrink. If there's no shrink handy then a chaplain may well be the next best thing but I still have a major problem with leaving it to an untrained guy's judgement as to what to do and his decision is legally enshrined as unquestionable.
No. I was not referring to confession. I was being quite literal with my example. As far as suicide. He still cannot tell anyone that someone is talking about killing himself. What a chaplain would do in this case is stay with the service member as long at it takes for him to overcome the suicidal thoughts.
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11-11-2015, 07:40 AM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 08:50 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 08:25 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The numbers show that whatever it is you people do, it doesn't work.
You said it was your job to support morale. If the national policy is stupid, you are supporting stupidity.
a. 50,000 + people killed in Vietnam. For what ? For nothing.
b. Thousands killed in Iraq and Afghanistan ... which was the impetus for ISIS, and accomplished NOTHING.

The military can have counsellors or whatever they need.
Religious chaplains are unconstitutional. If the CAUSE is really THAT important, (ie REAL national defense), then peoples' morale doesn't need "supporting".
You're a "tool" of the military-industrial complex, and the fat old men in Washington who sit at desks, whore around and tell secrets to their lovers, and whose kids generally don't go to combat.
Ok Bucky, I get it. You are anti-military and you believe anyone who serves in the military are unethical and immoral and deserve everything they get. Is that what you are saying?

He didn't say that.

Quote:You seem to know a lot about the realities of what service members and their families endure. Can you please tell me how long you have served in the military? I imagine a 22 year old from California must be junior enlisted. Actually since you obviously corrected everyone on this forum that we fought ISIS in Iraq and Afghanistan rather than Al' Queda and the Taliban

He didn't say that.

Quote:you are highly educated from a prestigious university so you have to be an officer...right?

Reread his post; you obviously misread it.

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11-11-2015, 07:46 AM
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(10-11-2015 09:36 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(10-11-2015 08:17 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  However I might add that if a catholic soldier came to me with a request to be baptized and I was the only chaplain around, I would be happy to honor the request. Although I would have to inform him that the Catholic Church may not recognize it.

Catholics are baptized at birth or as children. If you are baptized once by another religion they don't do it again. Once you've been confirmed then you're a Catholic.

So a Catholic would make no such request. Ever.

I'm sure they'll cover the relevant bits of what you can and can't do in Chaplin school. Smile

Chaplin school?

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11-11-2015, 08:17 AM (This post was last modified: 11-11-2015 08:28 AM by morondog.)
RE: Please Help a Future Military Chaplain
(11-11-2015 06:47 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  No. I was not referring to confession. I was being quite literal with my example. As far as suicide. He still cannot tell anyone that someone is talking about killing himself. What a chaplain would do in this case is stay with the service member as long at it takes for him to overcome the suicidal thoughts.

Is that ethically, or legally?

ETA: You said quote " Chaplains are protected by law and cannot be forced in ANY circumstances to disclose ANYTHING to ANYONE for ANY REASON." "Cannot be forced" does not equate to "must be quiet about it at all times".

If a soldier confessed an actual murder to you, would you tell or keep silent?

I appreciate that the Christian magical thinking tradition is that you keep everything in the silence of the confessional but I cannot believe that *that* is what is legally required of you.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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