Please help dear atheists!
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17-10-2014, 12:21 AM
RE: Please help dear atheists!
(16-10-2014 02:07 PM)Michael RK Wrote:  Dear Atheists! i am new to this forum, Hello!

i need your help, i have a muslim friend, who have been very nice to me since our friendship, but yesterday out of sudden he told me to join Islam, LOL!

he said Islam is what you need, just join it. and i laughed alot, i told him that i cant, he asked me why, and i had to give him some reason so i said that there are many errors in Quran, its not a perfect book at all, he asked me to show just a single error. and i have gave him this:

At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it. (Qu'ran 27.18) "

So he smiled, amused at her speech; and he said: "O my Lord! so order me that I may be grateful for Thy favours, which thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please Thee: And admit me, by Thy Grace, to the ranks of Thy righteous Servants." (Qu'ran 27.19)

I laughed and said, that there are ants talking with each other and recognizing human in Qu'ran. its not possible.

then he said - that Solomon was a prophet and had spiritual power by which he could hear the voice of ants by the help of wind. and the scientists have discovered that ants could communicate with each other.

he further said that - Qur'an is a miracle book because it says Ants can be crushed. atheists says its not possible to crush ants but Qur'an have discovered it long ago.

then finally he threw these lines on me:
Scientists have discovered recently that the ants are equipped with a strong external skeleton (exoskeleton) to protect and support the ant’s fragile body. Being inflexible, the ant’s skeleton gets crushed when pressed just as glass does! The recently discovered fact that ants’ bodies can get “crushed” was reported to us in the Holy Quran centuries ago in a wonderful address from one ant to its fellow ants.

Is this ^^^ science claim true?

So dear atheists i am not an expert science guy, please help me verify if what he's saying is true or not. i really don't think its possible, but please provide your opinions.

Thank You.

G'day, Michael RK, and welcome to our not-so-humble abode.
Unfortunately, I'm not well versed with the Qur'an, so I'll just deal with the ant thing.

If I may paraphrase Raymond Massey: 'It's as phoney as a three dollar bill'.
Ants cannot speak as humans can, plain and simple. It does not matter if Solomon was a prophet and could hear the voices of the ants via Wind Magic™; ants lack the necessary structures for speech, human or otherwise, cannot communicate verbally, so Solomon having Wind Magic™ is a moot point. Ants communicate mostly via pheromones and touch. The closest communication which Solomon may have heard is what is called 'stridulation'; a form of communication which sounds like clicking or squeaking; again, the Wind Magic™ is moot.

Anybody who says atheists deny that ants can be crushed is either so ignorant as to be on the level of a particularly uneducated infant or so disingenuous as to be on the level of Ray Comfort.

The exoskeleton of the Ant (and most other things like them... and fungi...) is comprised of chitin; chitin and glass are remarkably not remotely like each other in any aspect whatsoever. Odds are, they break in different ways; crush an ant and the chitin will likely snap at areas of extra stress. Crush a pane of glass and you'll notice that the central point of contact will form the centre from such a great deal of fractures come forth from; ants and glass do not break in the same way. Unfortunately I can find no comparisons between chitin and glass (probably because no real scientists actually think they are remotely similar) for a source and am working off my own understanding. If somebody else can find anything, awesome.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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17-10-2014, 02:12 AM
RE: Please help dear atheists!
(16-10-2014 05:56 PM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  wait?! wut?

I thought that was just a joke made in cartoons ages ago to show indecision between doing the right thing or the wrong thing.

LOL. people believe that shit exists?! Ohmy

Facepalm

Yeah! I had much the same reaction. Muslims don't like to talk about it though in debates so you can have fun asking them about it.
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17-10-2014, 06:06 AM (This post was last modified: 17-10-2014 03:17 PM by Chas.)
RE: Please help dear atheists!
Yet another hit and run theist. Drinking Beverage

I was wrong. Good.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-10-2014, 03:10 PM (This post was last modified: 17-10-2014 03:14 PM by Michael RK.)
RE: Please help dear atheists!
Thank you Bucky Bell, Goodwithoutgod, Free thought and all of you! thank you so much for the support.

i would rather die than to follow this rascal religion which encourages hatred, sexual assault of children, violence and even the sacrificing of poor innocent animals. its a complete package of rascaldom.
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17-10-2014, 03:21 PM
RE: Please help dear atheists!
For the record, there is nothing outside of the bible which attests to any 'solomon' either. He's as fictional as all the rest of it.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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17-10-2014, 03:24 PM
RE: Please help dear atheists!
(16-10-2014 02:34 PM)DLJ Wrote:  With the Quran it's always discovery after the fact.

For that book to be considered a scientific journal, it needs to not be just an "I told you so" document, it needs to make verifiable, falsifiable and testable predictions.

You are talking about a document that tells us that the stars are ... lamps!

Come off it! Really?





Lamps
*Snicker*

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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17-10-2014, 03:33 PM
RE: Please help dear atheists!
(17-10-2014 03:21 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  For the record, there is nothing outside of the bible which attests to any 'solomon' either. He's as fictional as all the rest of it.

The only non-biblical mention of Him or his father is in an Egyptian Battle Monument that lists one of the conquered as being of the "House of David"

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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17-10-2014, 03:41 PM
RE: Please help dear atheists!
(17-10-2014 03:10 PM)Michael RK Wrote:  Thank you Bucky Bell,

Ding ding Laughat

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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21-10-2014, 07:05 AM (This post was last modified: 21-10-2014 07:16 AM by MadDog.)
RE: Please help dear atheists!
(16-10-2014 06:20 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(16-10-2014 02:07 PM)Michael RK Wrote:  Dear Atheists! i am new to this forum, Hello!

i need your help, i have a muslim friend, who have been very nice to me since our friendship, but yesterday out of sudden he told me to join Islam, LOL!

he said Islam is what you need, just join it. and i laughed alot, i told him that i cant, he asked me why, and i had to give him some reason so i said that there are many errors in Quran, its not a perfect book at all, he asked me to show just a single error. and i have gave him this:

At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it. (Qu'ran 27.18) "

So he smiled, amused at her speech; and he said: "O my Lord! so order me that I may be grateful for Thy favours, which thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please Thee: And admit me, by Thy Grace, to the ranks of Thy righteous Servants." (Qu'ran 27.19)

I laughed and said, that there are ants talking with each other and recognizing human in Qu'ran. its not possible.

then he said - that Solomon was a prophet and had spiritual power by which he could hear the voice of ants by the help of wind. and the scientists have discovered that ants could communicate with each other.

he further said that - Qur'an is a miracle book because it says Ants can be crushed. atheists says its not possible to crush ants but Qur'an have discovered it long ago.

then finally he threw these lines on me:
Scientists have discovered recently that the ants are equipped with a strong external skeleton (exoskeleton) to protect and support the ant’s fragile body. Being inflexible, the ant’s skeleton gets crushed when pressed just as glass does! The recently discovered fact that ants’ bodies can get “crushed” was reported to us in the Holy Quran centuries ago in a wonderful address from one ant to its fellow ants.

Is this ^^^ science claim true?

So dear atheists i am not an expert science guy, please help me verify if what he's saying is true or not. i really don't think its possible, but please provide your opinions.

Thank You.

Tell him you appreciate the offer, but you cannot follow a religion that encourages the sexual assault of children...from their prophet all the way down to today.

Allah managed to hand down quite a few "revelations" that sanctioned Muhammad's personal pursuit of sex to the doubters around him. Interestingly they have become part of the eternal, infallible word of the Qur'an, to be memorized by generations of Muslims for whom they have no possible relevance.

Qur'an (33:37) - "But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah's command shall be performed." No doubt millions of young Muslims, trying to outdo one another at memorizing the Qur'an, have wondered about what this verse means and why it is there. In fact, this is a "revelation" of convenience that Allah just happened to hand down at a time when Muhammad lusted after his daughter-in-law, Zaynab, - a state of affairs that disturbed local customs. The verse "commands" Muhammad to marry the woman (following her husband's gracious divorce). As for why this should be part of the eternal word of God...?

Qur'an (33:50) - "O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her-- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; " This is another special command that Muhammad handed down to himself that allows virtually unlimited sex, divinely sanctioned by Allah. One assumes that this "revelation" was meant to assuage some sort of disgruntlement in the community over Muhammad's hedonism.

Qur'an (33:51) - "You may put off whom you please of them, and you may take to you whom you please, and whom you desire of those whom you had separated provisionally; no blame attaches to you; this is most proper, so that their eyes may be cool and they may not grieve, and that they should be pleased" This is in reference to a situation in which Muhammad's wives were grumbling about his preference for sleeping with a slave girl (Mary the Copt) instead of them. Accordingly, Muhammad may sleep with whichever wife (or slave) he wishes without having to hear the others complain... as revealed in Allah's literal and perfect words to more than a billion Muslims.

Qur'an (66:1-5) - "O Prophet! Why ban thou that which Allah hath made lawful for thee, seeking to please thy wives?..." Another remarkable verse of sexual convenience concerns an episode in which Muhammad's wives were jealous of the attention that he was giving to a Christian slave girl. But, as he pointed out to them, to neglect the sexual availability of his slaves was against Allah's will for him!

Qur'an (4:24) - "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." Allah even permitted Muhammad and his men to have sex with married slaves, such as those captured in battle.

Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) narrated that the Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) married her when she was six years old, and he consummated her in marriage when she was nine years old. Then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Khadijah died three years before the Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) departed to Madina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.

Urwa narrated: The Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years.

Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

This is just a sample of the early Muslim traditions reporting Muhammad’s marriage to the young Aisha, but it is sufficient to show that she certainly wasn’t fifteen years old at the time of the consummation, as some Muslims claim.

here is an educational link for you showing the Islamic proof that his wife was 9yo upon marriage/sex.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/prepubescent.htm

Muslims are quick to point out immorality around the world, especially in the West. It seems, then, that they are suggesting a very inconsistent message. When confronted with an immoral practice in another culture, Muslims cry out in one accord, "We condemn these practices, for they are against the eternal, perfect, and unalterable Law of God!" Yet, whenever the moral character of Muhammad is being scrutinized, Muslims suddenly say, "Don’t judge Muhammad! You should remember that he was from a different culture! Marrying young girls was common in Arabia, and it still is, thanks to Muhammad’s precedent. Different people have different moral standards, so no one should worry about Muhammad’s sexual relationship with a nine-year-old girl."

This convenient switch from moral absolutism to moral relativism is logically unacceptable. If it is wrong to judge the practices of another culture, then both Muhammad and the Qur’an were wrong for condemning immoral practices in Arabia. But if condemning immoral practices is acceptable, then Muslim apologists need a better response to criticisms of Muhammad’s relationship with Aisha.

First, Consider a husband on trial for beating his wife. When he takes the stand, he explains, "Your Honor, many women are victims of spousal abuse, and they need someone to talk to. Out of the kindness of my heart, I decided to beat my wife, so that she would be able to comfort other women whose husbands beat them." Such an explanation would never be accepted (except, perhaps, in countries under Islamic rule, where the Qur’an guarantees a husband’s right to beat his wife). Besides, if Muhammad had outlawed sex with children instead of becoming a willing participant, little girls wouldn’t have to worry about sex, and they wouldn’t need to question Aisha.

Second, it isn’t necessary for a lawgiver to institute laws by performing actions that create a precedent. In other words, Muhammad didn’t need to marry a young girl in order establish a law about marrying girls who had reached puberty. Muhammad, as Islam’s lawgiver, could have simply issued a decree. For instance, Muhammad allowed husbands to beat their wives. Was it necessary for Muhammad to beat his wives in order to establish this as a law? Certainly not. Similarly, when an American lawmaker says that killing someone in self-defense is acceptable, no one argues that the lawmaker must go out and kill someone in self-defense if his law is to stand. Hence, the argument that Muhammad needed to marry a young girl to establish puberty as the appropriate age for marriage completely fails.

Third, the Muslim claim that Aisha was a "precocious child" strains the evidence. Aisha herself reports that, when she was taken to Muhammad’s house, she was playing on a swing with her friends. She was also still playing with dolls. Based on the evidence, Aisha sounds like a normal little girl, not like a young adult. Besides, Muhammad didn’t marry her because she was precocious; he married her because he was dreaming about her.

Fourth, it is unlikely that God was using Muhammad’s relationship with Aisha to establish puberty as the appropriate age for marriage, since the Qur’an itself seems to allow marriage to prepubescent girls. According to Surah 65:4, a man must wait three months to divorce a wife who hasn’t yet reached menses. If Islam allows a man to divorce a girl who isn’t old enough to have her period, it follows that Islam also allows a man to marry a girl who hasn’t yet reached menses. And if the Qur’an allows marriage to prepubescent girls, then Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha would in no way rule out such a practice.

Fifth, Muslims search for reasons to justify Muhammad’s relationship with Aisha because they are convinced that everything Muhammad did had a divine purpose behind it. When critics point out Muhammad’s numerous murders and assassinations, Muslims claim that these violent acts were just. When critics note the extent of Muhammad’s polygamy, or his participation in the slave-trade, or his countless robberies, Muslims provide answers based on the view that Muhammad was an outstanding moral example. Similarly, when Muslims are confronted with the evidence for Muhammad’s sexual encounters with Aisha, they assume that there must have been a reason for it. They then invent reasons for Muhammad’s behavior (i.e. the other little girls needed someone to talk to about sex), and they offer these reasons as a defense of Muhammad’s morality. However, non-Muslims do not share this confidence in Muhammad’s moral perfection. Indeed, when non-Muslims hear about Muhammad’s violence, his greed, his polygamy, and his support of spousal abuse, we aren’t as quick to say "He must have had a reason" as Muslims seem to be. Because of this, Muslim justifications for Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha sound hollow when presented as a logical defense of his actions.

Finally, Muslim explanations for Muhammad’s behavior fail to take into account the dangers that accompany sex at a young age. Many Muslims claim that, as soon as a young girl gets her first period, she is ready to bear children. This "old enough to bleed, old enough to breed" mentality, aside from being disgusting, is completely false. A nine-year-old girl isn’t ready for sex or children, even if she reaches menses earlier than other little girls. Children that young are still growing; when they become pregnant, their bodies divert nutritional resources to the developing fetus, depriving the growing girls of much-needed vitamins and minerals. Further, complications often result from adolescent pregnancies, because the bodies of the young girls simply aren’t ready to give birth.

"Muhammad was married to thirteen women, including eleven at one time. He relegated them to either consecutive days or (according to some accounts) all in one night. He married a 9-year-old girl and even his adopted son's wife. On top of that, Muhammad had a multitude of slave girls and concubines with whom he had sex - sometimes on the very days in which they had watched their husbands and fathers die at the hands of his army."

So, by any realistic measure, the creator of the world's most sexually restrictive religion was also one of the most sexually indulgent characters in history.

From the Hadith:

Muslim (8:3309) - Muhammad consummated his marriage to Aisha when she was only nine. (See also Bukhari 58:234 and many other places). No where in the reliable Hadith or Sira is there any other age given.

Bukhari (62:18) - Aisha's father, Abu Bakr, wasn't on board at first, but Muhammad explained how the rules of their religion made it possible. This is similar to the way that present-day cult leaders manipulate their followers into similar concessions.

Muslim (8:3311) - The girl took her dolls with her to Muhammad's house (something to play with when the "prophet" was not having sex with her).

Bukhari (6:298) - Muhammad would take a bath with the little girl and fondle her.

Muslim (8:3460) - "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you could sport with her and she sport with you, or you could amuse with her and she could amuse with you?" Muhammad posed this question to one of his followers who had married an "older woman" instead of opting to fondle a child.

Bukhari (4:232) - Muhammad's wives would wash semen stains out of his clothes, which were still wet from the spot-cleaning even when he went to the mosque for prayers. Between copulation and prayer, it's a wonder he found the time to slay pagans.

Bukhari (6:300) - Muhammad's wives had to be available for the prophet's fondling even when they were having their menstrual period.

Bukhari (93:639) - The Prophet of Islam would recite the 'Holy Qur'an' with his head in Aisha's lap, when she was menstruating.

Bukhari (62:6) - "The Prophet used to go round (have sexual relations with) all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives." Muhammad also said that it was impossible to treat all wives equally - and it isn't hard to guess why.

Bukhari (5:268) - "The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, 'Had the Prophet the strength for it?' Anas replied, 'We used to say that the Prophet was given the strength of thirty men.' "

Bukhari (60:311) - "I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires." These words were spoken by Aisha within the context of her husband having been given 'Allah's permission' to fulfill his sexual desires with a large number of women in whatever order he chooses. (It has been suggested that Aisha may have been speaking somewhat wryly).

Muslim (8:3424) - One of several narrations in which a leering Muhammad orders a clearly startled woman to suckle a grown man with her breast so that he will become "unlawful" to her - meaning that they can live under the same roof together.

Tabari IX:137 - "Allah granted Rayhana of the Qurayza to Muhammad as booty." Muhammad considered the women that he captured and enslaved to be God's gift to him.

Tabari VIII:117 - "Dihyah had asked the Messenger for Safiyah when the Prophet chose her for himself... the Apostle traded for Safiyah by giving Dihyah her two cousins. The women of Khaybar were distributed among the Muslims." He sometimes pulled rank to reserve the most beautiful captured women for himself.

On the other hand, Muhammad passed down revelations from Allah that clearly condoned sleeping with underage girls, even by the standard of puberty. Qur'an (65:4) relates rules for divorce, one of them being that a waiting period of three months is established to determine that the woman is not pregnant. But the same rule applies to "those too who have not had their courses," meaning girls who have not begun to menstruate.

Thanks to Muhammad's extremely poor judgment (at best) and explicit approval of pedophilia, sex with children became deeply ingrained in the Islamic tradition. For many centuries, Muslim armies would purge Christian and Hindu peasant villages of their menfolk and send the women and children to harems and the thriving child sex slave markets deep in the Islamic world.

When it comes to child marriage, contemporary clerics warn fellow Muslims against succumbing to the disapproval of the Christian West: "It behooves those who call for setting a minimum age for marriage to fear Allah and not contradict his Sharia, or try to legislate things Allah did not permit. For laws are Allah’s province; and legislation is his excusive right, to be shared by none other. And among these are the rules governing marriage.”

The Ayatollah Khomeini, who married a 12-year-old girl, even gave his consent to using infants for sexual pleasure (although warning against full penetration until the baby is a few years older).

Some clerics show relative mercy on underage girls by advocating a process known as "thighing" (also known as child molestation in the West). According to a recent fatwa (number 23672), an imam answers this question: "My parents married me to a young girl who hasn't yet reached puberty. How can I enjoy her sexually?" by telling the 'man' that he may "hug her, kiss her, and ejaculate between her legs."

A prominent member of Saudi Arabia's highest religious council said in 2012 that girls can be married "even if they are in the cradle," then went on to explain that intercourse may occur whenever "they are capable of being placed beneath and bearing the weight of the man."

stop the bacha bazi tradition, you know the hiring and raping of little boys...or the marrying of 9 yo girls, raping them the night of the wedding and then when the child dies from bleeding, not even holding the man accountable, the mutilation of girls genitals so that she doesnt feel pleasure, the stoning of women accused of adultery, the honor killing of daughters who had the audacity to allow themselves to be raped...etc etc you know, all those great islam traditions.

by the way it is 2014, time to join the rest of the civilized world in living within socially acceptable standards like not sexually assaulting children, etc...

So my question is, why would you follow a religion like Islam that supports the forced sexual assault of children?

I'm so lazy I couldn't read all that! Great post lots of info I'll save it for when I meet a muslim. Yes bringing out the children that brings parents up in arms, if not the muslim parents. For another view - rather than having an effect on the allready hard immalleable mind of the Muslim knowing what those verses say and are pre-rationilized, maybe they are more affected by the passion of the speaker. Speak with passion and conviction you will convince. Facts do little until the emotion comes through. Look how the OP was made to doubt his own intuition by BS spoken so confidentially. I'm sure it's taught in religion school, act like you know what you're talking about :-P. To the OP be upfront to your friend say this religion is a problem but chances are he will not listen you buddy.

Say something that will have an effect in later years when the doubt starts. Predict muslims will be shunned and segregated in Western Nations in the near future, something maniacal. ( If it comes true he will remember that.) Why make that prediction? Imagine if ISIS gets enough samples of ebola. It stays on surfaces a long time, highly contagious. Imagine the repercussions. Dig around ebola is scientifically thought to be the black death in the middle ages. What do you think will happen if that shit hits the fan? Conspiracy time over going for the long shot is better than no shot.

For me it took a years of seeding doubt, followed by a personal crisis for (my partner) her highlighting what I had said many years later, to convince my partner her particular faith was leading her on. Love and relying on each other were factors in conjunction with being friends as well. If you are just friends try your most convincing then quickly move on lifes too short.
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21-10-2014, 02:27 PM
Re: RE: Please help dear atheists!
(17-10-2014 03:24 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(16-10-2014 02:34 PM)DLJ Wrote:  You are talking about a document that tells us that the stars are ... lamps!

Come off it! Really?

Lamps
*Snicker*
I am NOT changing the bulbs.

Angry
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