Please help get rid of my fears
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02-11-2016, 04:30 PM
RE: Please help get rid of my fears
(02-11-2016 03:47 PM)Diddlyboop Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 03:27 PM)jennybee Wrote:  I googled just to see and it appears one scientist (Barrie Schwortz) who was part of a 1978 research team (Shroud of Turin Research Project) has said he believes the shroud is authentic. Authentic meaning it is not a painting or forgery, but the blood from a man during that time period. And guess what--he is still Jewish. The shroud did not convert him to Christianity.

He is saying the shroud is authentic to a male who was beaten/buried during the time period of Jesus and the cloth was expensive. So therefore, Jesus.

There are a few problems with this assumption:

1) No DNA evidence to prove it was Jesus.

2) Many people were crucified in the same way Jesus was. Crucifixion was not just something that happened to Jesus. This was a very common practice during this time frame. As was wrapping bodies in shrouds. If the shroud is real and if it actually came from this time frame--the shroud could belong to any male who was beaten/crucified/buried at this time. All the shroud is is the real/fake bloody image of a male. To say that is Jesus is a huge leap.

From his Catholiconline interview: "Schwortz emphasized that the science points to the Shroud being the burial cloth belonging to a man, buried according to the Jewish tradition after having been crucified in a way consistent with the Gospel. However, he said it is not proof of the resurrection - and this is where faith comes in."

Oh gosh -- but there's far more evidence pointing to it being fake, right? I know, resurrection is literally impossible no matter how you look at it, but gosh I tend to worry about these things too much. I know it would be a huge leap to say "Therefore Jebus" but... aaaaahhh. Sometimes I wish I'd never been introduced to Christianity in the first place. Getting rid of it is so much trouble.

As with anything involving myth and "historical" (and I use that term loosely) figures, you are going to have people forming their own opinions on things. Especially when woo is involved. And if Apologists find one scientist who says "Hey, maybe it's Jesus" they go absolutely crazy over it. Never mind the multitudes of scientists who continue along with their scientific pursuits without the woo.

And, when you boil things down, it doesn't matter if it's real or fake (and there's a lot of evidence saying it's fake). Even if we were to find out tomorrow that this was the shroud of Jesus, what does that tell us other than he existed? Does it prove he was resurrected? No. Does it prove he was the son of God? No. If it is Jesus--all it is is a religious artifact. It's no different than the items (pottery, figurines, artwork, tools, etc.) that archaeologists (and others) find every day from various tribes and peoples around the planet.

The alternative is to believe that a magical leprechaun that lives in the clouds came down to earth and impregnated a human female with his son (who happens to be this same magical leprechaun in human form). Then this magical leprechaun sacrifices Jesus (aka himself) to himself so we can all be saved from the wrath of his magical leprechaunness. Tongue

I think it helps to ask yourself which makes more logical sense. The magical leprechaun scenario? Or the shroud is most likely a fake--and if it's not--it's simply a religious artifact that *could* be Jesus (proving only that he existed as a man)? It could also be the shroud of some other man who was crucified (a common practice) during this time period.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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02-11-2016, 05:03 PM
RE: Please help get rid of my fears
(02-11-2016 04:30 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 03:47 PM)Diddlyboop Wrote:  Oh gosh -- but there's far more evidence pointing to it being fake, right? I know, resurrection is literally impossible no matter how you look at it, but gosh I tend to worry about these things too much. I know it would be a huge leap to say "Therefore Jebus" but... aaaaahhh. Sometimes I wish I'd never been introduced to Christianity in the first place. Getting rid of it is so much trouble.

As with anything involving myth and "historical" (and I use that term loosely) figures, you are going to have people forming their own opinions on things. Especially when woo is involved. And if Apologists find one scientist who says "Hey, maybe it's Jesus" they go absolutely crazy over it. Never mind the multitudes of scientists who continue along with their scientific pursuits without the woo.

And, when you boil things down, it doesn't matter if it's real or fake (and there's a lot of evidence saying it's fake). Even if we were to find out tomorrow that this was the shroud of Jesus, what does that tell us other than he existed? Does it prove he was resurrected? No. Does it prove he was the son of God? No. If it is Jesus--all it is is a religious artifact. It's no different than the items (pottery, figurines, artwork, tools, etc.) that archaeologists (and others) find every day from various tribes and peoples around the planet.

The alternative is to believe that a magical leprechaun that lives in the clouds came down to earth and impregnated a human female with his son (who happens to be this same magical leprechaun in human form). Then this magical leprechaun sacrifices Jesus (aka himself) to himself so we can all be saved from the wrath of his magical leprechaunness. Tongue

I think it helps to ask yourself which makes more logical sense. The magical leprechaun scenario? Or the shroud is most likely a fake--and if it's not--it's simply a religious artifact that *could* be Jesus (proving only that he existed as a man)? It could also be the shroud of some other man who was crucified (a common practice) during this time period.

I'm trying to get over it. This is really helping, I promise. I can't possibly thank you and everyone else enough. ;u;

One of the other things I used to think about it before I came here was

"O-kay, let's assume for a minute the shroud is real and God is real, then. By that logic, the creator of the entire known and unknown universe decided that the only possible physical evidence of his son that was going to remain here was a microscopic-by-comparison shroud with a picture on it.

... Somehow I think God could've done a lot better.

Either that, or as Christopher Hitchens put it, 'it can't be believed by a thinking person'."

Then again maybe God's really just lazy, I don't know. It would explain why he stopped all the miracles after that. Consider

... I know he's gonna kick my ass if he does turn out to be real after all this, but regardless I am feeling a bit more hopeful now.
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02-11-2016, 05:12 PM
RE: Please help get rid of my fears
(02-11-2016 05:03 PM)Diddlyboop Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 04:30 PM)jennybee Wrote:  As with anything involving myth and "historical" (and I use that term loosely) figures, you are going to have people forming their own opinions on things. Especially when woo is involved. And if Apologists find one scientist who says "Hey, maybe it's Jesus" they go absolutely crazy over it. Never mind the multitudes of scientists who continue along with their scientific pursuits without the woo.

And, when you boil things down, it doesn't matter if it's real or fake (and there's a lot of evidence saying it's fake). Even if we were to find out tomorrow that this was the shroud of Jesus, what does that tell us other than he existed? Does it prove he was resurrected? No. Does it prove he was the son of God? No. If it is Jesus--all it is is a religious artifact. It's no different than the items (pottery, figurines, artwork, tools, etc.) that archaeologists (and others) find every day from various tribes and peoples around the planet.

The alternative is to believe that a magical leprechaun that lives in the clouds came down to earth and impregnated a human female with his son (who happens to be this same magical leprechaun in human form). Then this magical leprechaun sacrifices Jesus (aka himself) to himself so we can all be saved from the wrath of his magical leprechaunness. Tongue

I think it helps to ask yourself which makes more logical sense. The magical leprechaun scenario? Or the shroud is most likely a fake--and if it's not--it's simply a religious artifact that *could* be Jesus (proving only that he existed as a man)? It could also be the shroud of some other man who was crucified (a common practice) during this time period.

I'm trying to get over it. This is really helping, I promise. I can't possibly thank you and everyone else enough. ;u;

One of the other things I used to think about it before I came here was

"O-kay, let's assume for a minute the shroud is real and God is real, then. By that logic, the creator of the entire known and unknown universe decided that the only possible physical evidence of his son that was going to remain here was a microscopic-by-comparison shroud with a picture on it.

... Somehow I think God could've done a lot better.

Either that, or as Christopher Hitchens put it, 'it can't be believed by a thinking person'."

Then again maybe God's really just lazy, I don't know. It would explain why he stopped all the miracles after that. Consider

... I know he's gonna kick my ass if he does turn out to be real after all this, but regardless I am feeling a bit more hopeful now.

The best thing you can do is give your brain a breather from all of this. You've been over this a thousand times in your head, I can tell. Things are probably all jumbled in your mind. Just let them be (even though it's hard) and go do something else. Eventually, your brain will see the irrationality of all of it. Just keep educating yourself on the Bible (scholarly not the woo) and keep watching lots of atheist documentaries/debates and you'll soon start to put all of this behind you.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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02-11-2016, 05:35 PM
RE: Please help get rid of my fears
Shroud of Turin is completely real. Produced in the 14th century to inspire faith in the church in the same manner as numerous other manufactured relics. It's no accident that the style fits the portraiture of the time. There's even a coherent hypothesis concerning how it was accomplished. I don't believe it was ever meant to be seen as a "real thing;" this "proving god" nonsense is a completely modern invention.

Hell serves much the same role as Karma - manufactured nonsense to help the powerless feel more powerful. If any of those things were true we wouldn't be having this current election. Rolleyes

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02-11-2016, 05:37 PM
RE: Please help get rid of my fears
Hey Diddlyboop.

I don't really have anything to add to this conversation, but I wanted to reach out and welcome you to TTA. I only learned about the supposed shroud of Turin a little over a year ago when some Christians coaxed me into watching a CNN special about christian stuff. Haven't given it much thought since then, but I can appreciate how something that seems to be tangible proof may serve as a roadblock to changing your outlook on religion.

Keep researching and proving to yourself what the evidence actually points to instead of what some people want you to believe.
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02-11-2016, 05:51 PM
RE: Please help get rid of my fears
Also, this C+P job from back in the day... Cool

You know what Holy Spirit is? Christians around here seem pretty clueless about this essential ingredient of becoming Christian. You're not feeling it. I feel it. When anyone mentions hell in my presence, Holy Spirit in me wants to go old school prophet with alacrity, and color a rock with the gray of their brain matter. Do you know what it is like to stand before a person, holding the stone, feeling the cool surface, living the vibration of righteous indignation where you know with absolute certainty that despite the heinous nature of the act you are about to perform; nothing, no part of your being is hesitant to produce judgement?

I devised a thought experiment during my prophet OTJ days that involved going up to random Christians and with the presence of Holy Spirit, looking into their eyes, and verily telling them "I will burn in hell for you." I needed to know in no uncertain terms that if I were to draft the religion of Gwynnite, no one's "immortal soul" would be thus endangered.

And they looked back with tangible loathing.

Then I knew the meaning of the doctrine of hell was nothing more than a marketing ploy. A means for many Christians to maintain a sense of moral superiority based upon empty platitudes and meaningless ritual. Hell has nothing and can have nothing to do with god. It is patently fucking absurd. There is no "without god;" not in the absolute sense.

Holy Spirit is tao, the essence of motion; god is the spirit of creation. Holy Spirit is felt when it is necessary that it be felt. Good action does not need religion. God does not need identity. These are all absurdities brought forward the common sense of a senseless commons. People believe because their parents believe, because their friends believe; because we as humans have always believed. Until Holy Spirit speaks through a prophet. Religion in the past has helped societies preserve cohesion, has offered psychological comfort, has given groups of people a common focus and a common ground.

These punishment doctrines are perpetuated by people who feel powerless against a seemingly cruel entropic universe. They developed before a detailed understanding of psychology and the development of neuroscience illustrated the mechanics of mind. Things that can be described as "evil" are going to happen. Crimes are going to go unpunished. Justice is not always going to be served. God cannot stop this. Religion cannot stop this. What we can do is build the most educated, tolerant, scientifically literate society possible; and clinging to outmoded religious thought is not serving this goal.

This is hell. Let's get out of it. Heart

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02-11-2016, 06:27 PM
RE: Please help get rid of my fears
(02-11-2016 11:31 AM)Diddlyboop Wrote:  The reason why is that in one of the responses I noticed that it was recently dated to 33-1270 (something along those lines I can't be bothered to go back and check right now I'm a lazy girl woops :lolSmile and even though at the latest it's dated to, well, obviously around the first time it was shown, I'm still wondering why at the earliest it was still set back to 33. It's been scaring me a lot and I'm really sorry to bother you all with something so silly but you've helped me so much so far and I was hoping you could help with this.

Where did you come across the number 33 with regard to the dating methods used on the shroud? You know how desperate that sounds for some "historian" or "scientist" to pull that exact number out of their ass?
What a load of
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02-11-2016, 07:09 PM
RE: Please help get rid of my fears
(02-11-2016 05:37 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Hey Diddlyboop.

I don't really have anything to add to this conversation, but I wanted to reach out and welcome you to TTA. I only learned about the supposed shroud of Turin a little over a year ago when some Christians coaxed me into watching a CNN special about christian stuff. Haven't given it much thought since then, but I can appreciate how something that seems to be tangible proof may serve as a roadblock to changing your outlook on religion.

Keep researching and proving to yourself what the evidence actually points to instead of what some people want you to believe.

Eep, Aliza! Hug

You especially have helped me when I was just browsing around the forum. You made everything about why Jesus wasn't the messiah pretty obvious and -- eeeee, you're a lifesaver, debunking prophecies and such.

I remember seeing a comment on facebook saying "All Jews care about is rules, Jesus preached LOVE <3" [very much paraphrased] and needless to say I got pissed. It was so disrespectful.

Besides, for such a "loving" guy, he's caused a lot of people (including me) to live in fear. I'm glad I've been brought to reason ;u;
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02-11-2016, 07:17 PM
RE: Please help get rid of my fears
(02-11-2016 07:09 PM)Diddlyboop Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 05:37 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Hey Diddlyboop.

I don't really have anything to add to this conversation, but I wanted to reach out and welcome you to TTA. I only learned about the supposed shroud of Turin a little over a year ago when some Christians coaxed me into watching a CNN special about christian stuff. Haven't given it much thought since then, but I can appreciate how something that seems to be tangible proof may serve as a roadblock to changing your outlook on religion.

Keep researching and proving to yourself what the evidence actually points to instead of what some people want you to believe.

Eep, Aliza! Hug

You especially have helped me when I was just browsing around the forum. You made everything about why Jesus wasn't the messiah pretty obvious and -- eeeee, you're a lifesaver, debunking prophecies and such.

I remember seeing a comment on facebook saying "All Jews care about is rules, Jesus preached LOVE <3" [very much paraphrased] and needless to say I got pissed. It was so disrespectful.

Besides, for such a "loving" guy, he's caused a lot of people (including me) to live in fear. I'm glad I've been brought to reason ;u;

Awwww! Hug I'm honored to have helped you.

Really, if you need any supposed prophecy debunked, please do post the question up on the forum to be answered by everyone. If you would feel more comfortable, just shoot me a PM and I'll address it from a Jewish perspective with you privately.

Don't let questions go unanswered so they fester in your head. Ask the questions and examine everything from every angle. Make up your own mind in the end.
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02-11-2016, 07:41 PM
RE: Please help get rid of my fears
One of the things that might help is to break as many of the unspoken commandments as possible. You've taken care of "Thou Shalt not Doubt!" and "Thou Shalt not Question!" Next try out "Thou Shalt not Snicker!"

One of religion's big hooks is that "you have to respect it because..." Let's take care of that. Evil_monster Respect is earned and if you're laughing at it you aren't respecting its power over you.

I reccommend:

Good Omens, by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett.
Dogma (1999)
George Carlin, Tim Michin and a host of others.





"Jesus Christ who was the son of God, born of a virgin, crucified, ressurected and ascended bodily into heaven, can now be eaten as a cracker."

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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