Please help get rid of my fears
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11-11-2016, 11:22 AM
RE: Please help get rid of my fears
Alright. The shroud, for whatever reason, has been my final roadblock to ditching my worries altogether, and I just have one last question about it to fully get over it once and for all. Then I'll probably never bring it up again aaaand life will be good. Bowing

SO, the final question.

I was reading up on the rational wiki that the shroud was reexamined and found to be from the time of Jebus. Even if it were, true, it wouldn't prove anything, but it would still provide me more comfort if it weren't and my mind insists on bugging me about it. Weeping

However, the wiki put the methods of dating for this time around under dispute. Were the methods less accurate than the carbon dating, and is there any other reason to doubt they were accurate at all? Consider
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11-11-2016, 12:35 PM
RE: Please help get rid of my fears
(11-11-2016 11:22 AM)Diddlyboop Wrote:  Alright. The shroud, for whatever reason, has been my final roadblock to ditching my worries altogether, and I just have one last question about it to fully get over it once and for all. Then I'll probably never bring it up again aaaand life will be good. Bowing

SO, the final question.

I was reading up on the rational wiki that the shroud was reexamined and found to be from the time of Jebus. Even if it were, true, it wouldn't prove anything, but it would still provide me more comfort if it weren't and my mind insists on bugging me about it. Weeping

However, the wiki put the methods of dating for this time around under dispute. Were the methods less accurate than the carbon dating, and is there any other reason to doubt they were accurate at all? Consider

Even *if* it was Jesus' shroud, what makes it any more magical or otherworldly than any of the other religious artifacts we've come across over the years? If you are going to say well, if it is Jesus' shroud therefore God, then why not say the same thing about the Aurignacian Lion-Man, for example? The Lion-Man religious statue was discovered, and he's far, far, far, far older than the shroud. Using this logic, the Lion-Man/Woman must also be magical and otherworldy and a mythical beast/god because we found it and it is a statue people used in worship.

See how silly it begins to sound?

The shroud--even if it was Jesus'--which we will never know--because the DNA has been so contaminated, proves nothing other than it could possibly be from Jesus and if so, Jesus existed *as a man.*

Don't get hung up on the dates, they don't matter. If the shroud is from Jesus--so what? We find religious artifacts everyday and you don't believe in any of those gods from other cultures, so what makes the Jesus shroud any more special (other than the fact that you've been brainwashed to believe that he is *your* god)?
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16-11-2016, 03:08 PM
RE: Please help get rid of my fears
If you read what the Bible says about the burial of Jesus and of the burial cloths left behind after his resurrection you will see that he could not have been buried in the shroud of Turin. I have made a post about this in my blog. https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2014/0...-of-turin/

The fact that the shroud is fake doesn't prove that the resurrection didn't happen.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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16-11-2016, 03:15 PM
RE: Please help get rid of my fears
Shroud ain't "fake," theo. Tongue

Haven't seen anything to convince (or even to suggest) it is other than a manufactured 14th century relic - in the tradition of relic manufacture. What is this wiki of which you speak?

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16-11-2016, 03:55 PM
RE: Please help get rid of my fears
(02-11-2016 11:31 AM)Diddlyboop Wrote:  Hello, everyone. I've been an atheist for about a half a year now (and a very rough half year, I've got to say). Essentially my fears of hell spiked up and I immediately began looking up anything that could debunk Christianity and -- welp, thankfully there was way more to find there than I expected. Thumbsup

So I do feel mostly confident in my decision to leave Christianity behind and my fears of hell are almost entirely dissolved. Browsing this forum helped so much, I can't thank all of you enough. It almost makes me feel bad for coming to you about something as silly as this, but you're all more educated than me in about essentially everything when it comes to these matters so--

There's one thing that's still picking at my brain, one thing that just keeps making my panic return. Of course one of the things I was looking to debunk was the Shroud of Turin (I know, I know, it's PROBABLY fake, but my brain keeps nagging at me that it just might be legit). I read all of the threads here debunking it, and yet the fears just kept coming back.

The reason why is that in one of the responses I noticed that it was recently dated to 33-1270 (something along those lines I can't be bothered to go back and check right now I'm a lazy girl woops :lolSmile and even though at the latest it's dated to, well, obviously around the first time it was shown, I'm still wondering why at the earliest it was still set back to 33. It's been scaring me a lot and I'm really sorry to bother you all with something so silly but you've helped me so much so far and I was hoping you could help with this.

For all I know that might very well be the shroud that was wrapped around the man many call Jesus.

Doesn't make him a prophet.
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16-11-2016, 07:22 PM
RE: Please help get rid of my fears
(16-11-2016 03:55 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  For all I know that might very well be the shroud that was wrapped around the man many call Jesus.

Except it is demonstrably not.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-11-2016, 08:30 PM
RE: Please help get rid of my fears
(11-11-2016 11:22 AM)Diddlyboop Wrote:  SO, the final question.

I was reading up on the rational wiki that the shroud was reexamined and found to be from the time of Jebus. Even if it were, true, it wouldn't prove anything, but it would still provide me more comfort if it weren't and my mind insists on bugging me about it. Weeping

However, the wiki put the methods of dating for this time around under dispute. Were the methods less accurate than the carbon dating, and is there any other reason to doubt they were accurate at all? Consider

You need to read the RationalWiki article again. In order to get to the part about people finding it to be from the time of Jesus, you had to skip over reading the parts about how the image would not look like that if it was from actual burial wrappings-- it would be distorted and not as recognizable. You had to skip where it said that the complex herringbone weave was not of a type known to have been used until centuries after the time of the crucifixion. You also had to skip over where the original carbon dating tests showed it to be from the time it was "discovered". Only later did a "new test" come out that showed it was from the time of Jesus. But what was that new test?

Two Catholic scientists, working with an "exclusive" (as in they wouldn't allow other scientists to perform the same tests-- the antithesis of actual science) right to look at the cloth, found it to be from the time period of Jesus. How can we rule out "pious fraud" (or what I call Lying for Jesus™), if we're not allowed to do the same test the Catholic Church allowed the Catholic scientists to perform? Secondly, the method they used wasn't just carbon dating but an infrared spectroscopy method that is known to be useless for very old objects. In other words, these guys results are not scientific in the slightest, despite their background in the field of science, and it's entirely possible they're lying to protect a major asset of the Roman Catholic Church.

That's not to say there are not 100% honest Catholic scientists out there... only that this particular test, orchestrated by the Holy See and limited only to the people they specifically chose while refusing to let others examine the relic, is more than a little bit suspect. To put it nicely.

And again, as has been pointed out-- even if every test agreed (they don't) when performed by people who don't have an agenda (it can't be, anymore, after the first scientific tests showed it was from the late middle ages) and it turns out that the blood was actually blood-spatter from wrapped body and not blood used as pigment to create the image artificially (it appears the latter is more likely), you still are left with "so which of the thousands of people cruficied in that time period might this belong to?"

It's certainly not the proof the Christian fundamentalists claim it is, and given their history of pious fraud on similar subjects, we should hold this claim to the absolute highest standards of proof before even starting to consider it a possible reality.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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17-11-2016, 12:04 AM
RE: Please help get rid of my fears
(16-11-2016 08:30 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(11-11-2016 11:22 AM)Diddlyboop Wrote:  SO, the final question.

I was reading up on the rational wiki that the shroud was reexamined and found to be from the time of Jebus. Even if it were, true, it wouldn't prove anything, but it would still provide me more comfort if it weren't and my mind insists on bugging me about it. Weeping

However, the wiki put the methods of dating for this time around under dispute. Were the methods less accurate than the carbon dating, and is there any other reason to doubt they were accurate at all? Consider

You need to read the RationalWiki article again. In order to get to the part about people finding it to be from the time of Jesus, you had to skip over reading the parts about how the image would not look like that if it was from actual burial wrappings-- it would be distorted and not as recognizable. You had to skip where it said that the complex herringbone weave was not of a type known to have been used until centuries after the time of the crucifixion. You also had to skip over where the original carbon dating tests showed it to be from the time it was "discovered". Only later did a "new test" come out that showed it was from the time of Jesus. But what was that new test?

Two Catholic scientists, working with an "exclusive" (as in they wouldn't allow other scientists to perform the same tests-- the antithesis of actual science) right to look at the cloth, found it to be from the time period of Jesus. How can we rule out "pious fraud" (or what I call Lying for Jesus™), if we're not allowed to do the same test the Catholic Church allowed the Catholic scientists to perform? Secondly, the method they used wasn't just carbon dating but an infrared spectroscopy method that is known to be useless for very old objects. In other words, these guys results are not scientific in the slightest, despite their background in the field of science, and it's entirely possible they're lying to protect a major asset of the Roman Catholic Church.

That's not to say there are not 100% honest Catholic scientists out there... only that this particular test, orchestrated by the Holy See and limited only to the people they specifically chose while refusing to let others examine the relic, is more than a little bit suspect. To put it nicely.

And again, as has been pointed out-- even if every test agreed (they don't) when performed by people who don't have an agenda (it can't be, anymore, after the first scientific tests showed it was from the late middle ages) and it turns out that the blood was actually blood-spatter from wrapped body and not blood used as pigment to create the image artificially (it appears the latter is more likely), you still are left with "so which of the thousands of people cruficied in that time period might this belong to?"

It's certainly not the proof the Christian fundamentalists claim it is, and given their history of pious fraud on similar subjects, we should hold this claim to the absolute highest standards of proof before even starting to consider it a possible reality.

Oh my goodness, this just took a huge weight off my shoulders. I don't know why but the shroud was one of my biggest concerns... hell, I didn't even know it existed until after I was trying to find stuff debunking Christianity. Blink Once I found out about it and saw so many Christians defending it I got scared because... well, recently deconverting, I wasn't thinking straight and easily frightened.

I did read everything else on the article, I promise. But for whatever reason the fear kept persisting over the thing, but now that you've given me more information about the more recent testing I feel so much better. Ugh. You rock. Bowing
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17-11-2016, 12:25 AM
RE: Please help get rid of my fears
I looked into it a bit more. Turns out our two Catholic "scientists" (I use scientists in quotes because not only did they not use the Scientific Method, and the main guy behind the test is a professor of Mechanical Engineering at the University of Padua, Italy) didn't use radio-carbon dating at all. Instead, they used infrared imaging and spectroscopy, methods that are much more subjective in terms of results ("the art of interpretation", we'll call it), and which they should have damned well known wouldn't apply reliably to an allegedly 2000-year-old object.

They then failed to present their results and methodology for full Peer Review in a recognized journal, instead publishing a book about it, titled, I'm sure, Get Your Religious Preconceptions Pseudoscientifically Validated by a Professor for Only 25 Euros.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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17-11-2016, 12:48 AM
RE: Please help get rid of my fears
(17-11-2016 12:25 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I looked into it a bit more. Turns out our two Catholic "scientists" (I use scientists in quotes because not only did they not use the Scientific Method, and the main guy behind the test is a professor of Mechanical Engineering at the University of Padua, Italy) didn't use radio-carbon dating at all. Instead, they used infrared imaging and spectroscopy, methods that are much more subjective in terms of results ("the art of interpretation", we'll call it), and which they should have damned well known wouldn't apply reliably to an allegedly 2000-year-old object.

They then failed to present their results and methodology for full Peer Review in a recognized journal, instead publishing a book about it, titled, I'm sure, Get Your Religious Preconceptions Pseudoscientifically Validated by a Professor for Only 25 Euros.

Wow.. I can't believe I got that scared over that. Facepalm

I had no idea just how unreliable those "tests" really were. At least I'll sleep a bit easier tonight. There shouldn't have been much a reason to be frightened anyway, I suppose. Tongue
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