Please present a better explanation for our existence than Theism
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24-05-2011, 09:22 PM
 
Please present a better explanation for our existence than Theism
Please present a better explanation for our existence than Theism.
If a intelligent creator is excluded, only chance or physical need is left.
What makes you believe, one of the two possibilites is more compelling than theism ?
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24-05-2011, 09:59 PM
RE: Please present a better explanation for our existence than Theism
The simple fact that there is no substantial evidence to an intelligent creator, which makes desiring one fruitless. Progress has often been ceased by a need to follow traditions. Religion has long been a control that limited rather than improved humanity. This is not in a case by case manner but as a whole. That is one of the big reasons to find something besides a creator.

For me there is no calling something a god, because if god means inherently good then it's impossible to find. I don't care about deism as an unaware creator is the same as an ancestor. The truth about the big questions for some, is that we know a lot more about these things than we used to, and keep learning. Many unknowable things have become known and often mastered. Any question will eventually be known by skepticality. This is the basic trend that can be followed.

Explain to me what you consider better to mean in this sense so that I may present something in that line. For me the whole creator line means nothing as it just puts a word on the unidentified. The best explanation for existence is that it is rapidly being known and will eventually be known even if not during our lifetimes. I live this life for this life, and do many things to help people who in the future walk a similar path. I have no need to prepare myself for an eventual afterlife because I am alive now. You can't control anything by a belief in religion., because the actual point of the whole belief happens as you die. You spend all this time trying to control a future that doesn't happen until you randomly die. That's a lot more random than disbelieving the easy answer to find one that makes more sense.

What does theism answer? Saying that some unknown entity created everything with a plan says nothing. It's just a postulation. Proposing that you aren't sure, but it can be found sounds a lot better to me. To any question with no current answer a religious person prescribes god, whereas a skeptical (not atheist in general) person prescribes "I don't know, but we will find the answer eventually". If you need somewhere to put faith, then put it in the faith that things will continue advancing and become less and less confusing. That is a very noticeable trend throughout history, and therefore it is quite a good idea to believe in this not quite definite concept of cultural advancement.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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24-05-2011, 10:18 PM
 
RE: Please present a better explanation for our existence than Theism
(24-05-2011 09:59 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  The simple fact that there is no substantial evidence to an intelligent creator, which makes desiring one fruitless.

that is not what i have asked for. You need to present POSITIVE evidence , if you want to make a compelling case.


Quote:Progress has often been ceased by a need to follow traditions. Religion has long been a control that limited rather than improved humanity.

that is not only off topic, but neither true.

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t342-chr...to-science

Perhaps the area in which Christianity has been the most vociferously attacked in this century has been the area of science. Religion and science are thought by many to be like oil and water; the two simply don't mix. Religion is thought to offer superstition while science offers facts.
It would seem, however, that those who make such a charge haven't given much attention to the history of science. In their book, The Soul of Science,{5} authors Nancy Pearcey and Charles Thaxton make a case for the essential role Christianity played in the development of science. The authors point out four general ways Christianity has positively influenced its development.{6}

First, Christianity provided important presuppositions of science. The Bible teaches that nature is real, not an illusion. It teaches that is has value and that it is good to work with nature. Historically this was an advance over pagan superstitions because the latter saw nature as something to be worshipped or as something filled with spirits which weren't to be angered. As one theologian wrote, "Nature was thus abruptly desacralized, stripped of many of its arbitrary, unpredictable, and doubtless terrifying aspects."{7}

Also, because it was created by God in an orderly fashion, nature is lawful and can be understood. That is, it follows discernible patterns which can be trusted not to change. "As the creation of a trustworthy God, nature exhibited regularity, dependability, and orderliness. It was intelligible and could be studied. It displayed a knowable order."{8}

Second, Christianity sanctioned science. Science "was justified as a means of alleviating toil and suffering."{9} With animistic and pantheistic cultures, God and nature were so closely related that man, being a part of nature, was incapable of transcending it, that is, of gaining any real control over it. A Christian world view, however, gave man the freedom to subject nature to his needs-with limitations, of course-because man relates primarily to God who is over nature. Technology-or science applied-was developed to meet human needs as an expression of our God-given duty to one another. As one historian put it, "the Christian concept of moral obligation played an important role in attracting people to the study of nature."{10}

Third, Christianity provided motives for pursuing scientific knowledge. As scientists learned more about the wonders of the universe, they saw God's glory being displayed.

Fourth, Christianity "played a role in regulating scientific methodology."{11} Previously, the world was thought to work in perfectly rational ways which could be known primarily through logical deduction. But this approach to science didn't work. Planets don't have to orbit in circular patterns as some people concluded using deductive logic; of course, it was discovered by investigation that they didn't. A newer way of understanding God's creation put the emphasis on God's will. Since God's will couldn't be simply deduced through logical reasoning, experimentation and investigation were necessary. This provided a particular theological grounding for empirical science.

The fact is that it was distinctly Christian beliefs which provided the intellectual and moral foundations for the study of nature and for its application through technology. Thus, although Christianity and some scientists or scientific theories might be in opposition, Christianity and science are not.

Quote:Explain to me what you consider better to mean in this sense so that I may present something in that line.

a explanation that is more convincing, that has more and better explanatory power, to be true.

Quote: The best explanation for existence is that it is rapidly being known and will eventually be known even if not during our lifetimes.

why do you think it is so difficult to know. Just make a compelling case for chance, and here we go......
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24-05-2011, 10:24 PM
RE: Please present a better explanation for our existence than Theism
(24-05-2011 09:22 PM)ElShadai Wrote:  Please present a better explanation for our existence than Theism.
If a intelligent creator is excluded, only chance or physical need is left.
What makes you believe, one of the two possibilites is more compelling than theism ?

How compelling they are doesn't enter into it. The evidence supports life arising by chance.

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
- Terry Pratchett
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24-05-2011, 10:24 PM
RE: Please present a better explanation for our existence than Theism
(24-05-2011 10:18 PM)ElShadai Wrote:  
Quote:Explain to me what you consider better to mean in this sense so that I may present something in that line.

a explanation that is more convincing, that has more and better explanatory power, to be true.

"A wizard did it" has no explanatory power.

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
- Terry Pratchett
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24-05-2011, 10:26 PM
RE: Please present a better explanation for our existence than Theism
I have a question for you... if I say that pigs can actually fly like birds do and you deny this claim... which one of us bears the burden of proof?

The God excuse: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument. "God did it." Anything we can't describe must have come from God. - George Carlin

Whenever I'm asked "What if you're wrong?", I always show the asker this video: http://youtu.be/iClejS8vWjo Screw Pascal's wager.
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24-05-2011, 10:50 PM (This post was last modified: 24-05-2011 11:01 PM by Observer.)
RE: Please present a better explanation for our existence than Theism
Just because we are self aware does not mean we are all that important. Chance suffices as explanation.

Ascribing creation to a deity rises more questions then it answers. It only pushes the questions into infinite regress. It does not matter how much of the creation story caters to your feelings: it does not make it more true. Also, what story are you going to pick to believe in? The Christian? The Muslim? The Hindu? Or are you a nice fellow and do you want to find a compromise... Even if it caters to as much people as possible: It's not going to make it more true.

It's rather hard to understand but,
The beauty and awesomeness of earth and life only exists in the eye of the beholder. Once you see that, it is much easier to understand the chance concept.

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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24-05-2011, 10:58 PM
 
not an explain... a... uhh... mmm... experience!
.

ElShada wrote:
Please present a better explanation for our existence than Theism.
If an intelligent creator is excluded, only chance or physical need is left.
What makes you believe, one of the two possibilities are more compelling than theism?

i read your responses in answer to other postings, in answer to your query
it was very interesting all the way around with cognitive intelligence

so
when it comes to looking at explanation of man in existence
i turn to the indigenous peoples of earth:
indigenous americans
eskimo of the far north
indigenous australians
the indigenous amazon peoples

i look at indigenous peoples because
they are... on earth

the industrial revolution removed the european people from the earth and
into a world created by man
separate from the earth

that world has spread far and wide removing more and more people from
the earth and into the world of man
and
here we are today...

so
looping back around to your original query:
chance or physical need
as a choice more compelling than the prospect of theism

i can only offer you this as an answer by virtue of... my experience:

out of all mystery and the unknowable way of things
i found in being
surrendered of self
surrendered of person
i not being i
the body and person did fall away

then
a light was in the darkness
and it was me
me of no person or body or gender or self of some kind

and suddenly
the light of all
from the beginning and ending forever
god
was before me
and i before god

the light i am
became with the light of all being
with god

and from no word by me
wonder came forth
the wonder of
why

and the answer was
deep sweet and wide
love spread across timeless time

and i knew
with a sudden knowing
all was right and good

it was without word
because word cannot reach
or see
or know forever

no thing and no body
can touch or take forever away
the love that is forever remains
forever...


that is singular to me
it means no thing to no other body
it doesn't even matter really

what does matter is
there is more than apparent
there is more than what can be thought
there is... more





.















.

i wrote the word god
it will chaff god knows who and what number of people
but
i did not have any other word to write for the present consciousness of all being
take it as a convenience and not as a point to freak out over...


.
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24-05-2011, 11:36 PM (This post was last modified: 24-05-2011 11:43 PM by daemonowner.)
RE: Please present a better explanation for our existence than Theism
God Almighty, you are so mindnumbingly wrong its not funny.

Quote:
Quote:Progress has often been ceased by a need to follow traditions. Religion has long been a control that limited rather than improved humanity.
that is not only off topic, but neither true.

Say that to the history of mankind. The catholic church and the traditions of the chinese both prohibited people from dissecting the human body. That is why the concepts of chi and meridians arose. The catholic church also persecuted any that claimed a different set of beliefs or view of origins than they did. Galileo, among other scientists who proposed alternate views, we persecuted, and then they later had to apologise for their being wrong.

Its wrong that christianity didn't play an essential role in the development of science, science was continuously hindered by religion, and still is to this day. Look no further than stem cell research, the acceptance of the theory of evolution, and global warming.

"The Bible teaches that nature is real, not an illusion. It teaches that is has value and that it is good to work with nature"
Where? Don't you know that many christians in america are using the bible to support their anti-science views that global warming is a myth and that we can destroy nature as much as we want?

"Also, because it was created by God in an orderly fashion..."
Burden of proof.

What you are saying is not supported by history. You seem to be (or perhaps the author's were) finding correlation and clumsily adding the christian creator to it.
An example is this: "Also, because it was created by God in an orderly fashion, nature is lawful and can be understood". You find some aspect of reality, namely that the universe we perceive is governed by laws, and then you fit your theology into it. That is ad hoc reasoning.

I don't really need to delve into the whole burden of proof, "compelling case" stuff. Basically, you're getting the burden of proof round the wrong way. Christianity has made claims which at least to us have not had their burden of proof met.
If you want an alternative to christianity, try scientifically discerned reality: we evolved from a common ancestor that lived approximately 3.5 billion years ago, no god required.
Also, we don't have to know the truth, we don't have to accept a conclusion in the mean time whilst we don't actually know what happened. We can accept that we don't know, and that we should continue to find out, so that we may find whats real. So to make the dichotomy of theism or another explanation is incorrect. We may withhold judgement when insufficient evidence for any conclusion has been presented, that includes theism.

I would like to know, why do you believe in christianity?

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do." - Voltaire
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25-05-2011, 12:00 AM
 
RE: Please present a better explanation for our existence than Theism
.

ElShadai

i had a thought
why not come from a point of your own experience not some other person
like this:

you ever stand outside and see
the green canopy of a tree against the afternoon blue of the sky
and feel a breeze against your face
and
looking at the vast distance of all things in that moment
feel a sense of awe past thinking?



.
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