Please present explanations which make philosophical naturalism plausible
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13-03-2013, 07:17 PM
RE: Please present explanations which make philosophical naturalism plausible
(13-03-2013 07:15 PM)Godexists Wrote:  If the fundamental constants like the atomic forces would be different, no universe would exist. That demands for a explanation.

Explanation:

Aren't we lucky!

If things had been different...

I think I'm repeating myself.

Sigh!

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13-03-2013, 07:18 PM
RE: Please present explanations which make philosophical naturalism plausible
(13-03-2013 05:04 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  
(13-03-2013 03:16 PM)Godexists Wrote:  
Substantiate your claims.
This thread is rather for you to substantiate YOUR claims....
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13-03-2013, 07:19 PM
RE: Please present explanations which make philosophical naturalism plausible
(13-03-2013 07:16 PM)Godexists Wrote:  
(13-03-2013 05:13 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Welcome to the forum, Godexists.

Enter TTA... god exits.

Drinking Beverage


ps, I adore the 'fine-tuning' argument.
It essentially says that if things were different... then... things would be different.

Awesome!
No, it says, no universe would exist.

D'huh!

It says that this universe would not exist.

Smartass

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13-03-2013, 07:23 PM
RE: Please present explanations which make philosophical naturalism plausible
(13-03-2013 07:18 PM)Godexists Wrote:  
(13-03-2013 05:04 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Substantiate your claims.
This thread is rather for you to substantiate YOUR claims....
NOT our job. All that's needed is to show the fallacies in your claims and 'facts'.

Good luck trying. You're beating a dead horse - one that's been beat to death for a long time.

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13-03-2013, 07:25 PM
RE: Please present explanations which make philosophical naturalism plausible
(13-03-2013 07:18 PM)Godexists Wrote:  
(13-03-2013 05:04 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Substantiate your claims.
This thread is rather for you to substantiate YOUR claims....

I'm sorry, we didn't go to you and say prove this. You've offered little beyond repeating the same tired lines which have already been refuted.

Again shoo fly


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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13-03-2013, 07:51 PM
RE: Please present explanations which make philosophical naturalism plausible
(13-03-2013 07:15 PM)Godexists Wrote:  
(13-03-2013 06:36 PM)Chas Wrote:  Anthropocentric hubris. Your hidden assumption is that the universe is here so that we can exist.

YOU HAVE IT ASS-BACKWARDS.

We evolved in the universe as it exists. If it were different, we wouldn't be here. Maybe something else would.
If the fundamental constants like the atomic forces would be different, no universe would exist. That demands for a explanation.
If things were different, then things would be different. Yes, I see. Consider

In what way does that demand an explanation? What it demands is investigation.

You can make up an answer (like a creator) but that is not an explanation.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-03-2013, 07:58 PM
RE: Please present explanations which make philosophical naturalism plausible
(13-03-2013 07:15 PM)Godexists Wrote:  
(13-03-2013 06:36 PM)Chas Wrote:  Anthropocentric hubris. Your hidden assumption is that the universe is here so that we can exist.

YOU HAVE IT ASS-BACKWARDS.

We evolved in the universe as it exists. If it were different, we wouldn't be here. Maybe something else would.
If the fundamental constants like the atomic forces would be different, no universe would exist. That demands for a explanation.
How can you demonstrate that the universe would not exist if the constants changed?

2.5 billion seconds total
1.67 billion seconds conscious

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13-03-2013, 08:04 PM
RE: Please present explanations which make philosophical naturalism plausible
(13-03-2013 07:15 PM)Godexists Wrote:  
(13-03-2013 06:36 PM)Chas Wrote:  Anthropocentric hubris. Your hidden assumption is that the universe is here so that we can exist.

YOU HAVE IT ASS-BACKWARDS.

We evolved in the universe as it exists. If it were different, we wouldn't be here. Maybe something else would.
If the fundamental constants like the atomic forces would be different, no universe would exist. That demands for a explanation.
A universe would still exist. It might not be have any life in it, but it would still be there.
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13-03-2013, 08:37 PM
RE: Please present explanations which make philosophical naturalism plausible
(13-03-2013 04:24 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  To the very young or the very stupid, I like to explain why life flourishes here on earth.

Walking out to the sidewalk, I show them a crack in the sidewalk. Within that crack, blades of grass grow.
As we look around on the concrete, we don't find any grass growing on it. We only find it growing in places suitable for it to grow. Alternately we can look at the cracks along the concrete wall and depending on where the crack it, we may find some blades growing there, but usually. not every crack is suitable. Why is this ?

The cracks on the sidewalk can more easily contain and hold dirt that is wisked through the air by the wind.
The cracks on the wall aren't as suited to retain dirt and a good rain can wash away what little dirt was there.

Natural processes create cracks in the sidewalk. The instability of nature creates places where life can grow.
Not all places naturally made are suitable for life.

By examining the universe, we have really good information and evidence that shows the beginnings of the expansion that our universe is currently undergoing. We have seen how stars form. We have seen accretion disks. We can view other planetary solar systems. We have experiments that show how the early building blocks of life can form by recreating the conditions of the early atmosphere on earth.

So we can show that the building blocks of life can come from inorganic compounds that are mixed, heated, subjected to ultraviolet light and electricity.
We can show how evolution works as it is observed on this planet.
All life here has come from a common ancestor.

Life is no more fine tuned than a crack in the sidewalk.
Life grows where it can.

Simple as that.



What if the odds of a crack opening in the sidewalk at one in a trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion?

You are misunderstanding the fine tuned universe argument. You think life grows where it can and that explains why we are here. The fine tuned argument, argues that the odds of the universe being capable of supporting life(or the odds of the concrete cracking to use your analogy)are so large that we can dimiss happenstance as an explaination.

Even the father of string theory, atheist Leonard Susskind, thinks the happenstance explaination is silly.



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13-03-2013, 08:44 PM
RE: Please present explanations which make philosophical naturalism plausible
(13-03-2013 07:18 PM)Godexists Wrote:  
(13-03-2013 05:04 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Substantiate your claims.
This thread is rather for you to substantiate YOUR claims....

Cosmologists observe that the universe we reside in is expanding. It contains billions of galaxies.
In those billions of galaxies, we observe billions of stars.
In our own galaxy, we have made numerous observations.
Cosmologists can turn any number of observations we have made into claims.
They can justify those claims with the evidence of those observations.
We can make predictions based on the physical laws that we have observed in the universe.
We can justify those claims about the things we know or the things we can accurately predict.

All of our beliefs that we have about the accuracy of our observations of reality are backed up by evidence.
I believe the earth orbits our sun. I can justify this belief with evidence.
The evidence is overwhelming enough to be called knowledge.
We not only believe this to be true, we know it to be true because we can justify that belief with mountains of evidence.

So you see, our claims are justified by the evidence we have obtained through careful scrutiny of what we observe.

You seem to want to know why a natural process is natural.
You are looking for some finely tuned reason why a storm develops. (It must have been Thor-Odin's Son)
You have this desire for a being to be above us, pulling some puppet strings on the world, causing the tides, making it rain, setting the exact temperature for water to freeze, making a rainbow or leading a sperm to it's final destination.

You find it unfathomable that a tree can naturally grow on it's own without someone guiding every single one of it's cell divisions.
This is the natural world. It's nature. Nature Exists

You want to know WHY ?

I'm sorry, I can only explain what we observe and that observation is as best we can do for now.

Physical laws exist. We observe that.
The universe exists. We observe that.
We exist as a result of both. This also is our observation.
The idea of a god exists because we created that idea in our imagination.
To date our imaginary god has not been observed.

Our imagination can give rise to many creative endeavors. Painting, story telling, conceptual ideas that innovate the world.
Our world, our natural world.
We lay a claim on what we observe. Nothing more.
If you are seeing things that others do not. You might want to see a doctor about that.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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