Please present explanations which make philosophical naturalism plausible
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13-03-2013, 10:30 PM
RE: Please present explanations which make philosophical naturalism plausible
(13-03-2013 09:10 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  2)As a matter of happenstance the universe just happened to hit a 1 in a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion shot and developed with the constants necessary for life as we know it.(not credible)

Damn man, ever heard of scientific notion? 1x10^120 would have been easier to write, dont you think? Or simply 10^120

2.5 billion seconds total
1.67 billion seconds conscious

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13-03-2013, 11:24 PM
RE: Please present explanations which make philosophical naturalism plausible
(13-03-2013 05:11 AM)Godexists Wrote:  Please present evidence, that makes naturalistic explanations plausible in regard of :

the existence and origin of the universe
its fine tuning
existence of planets
chemical evolution
abiogenesis
sex
morals
conscience
the hability of speech
complex and codified information stored in DNA

It just seems to me that you are baffled by simple things, and as such require a baffling explanation. Things like morals and speech are completely subjective and arbitrary things that human beings made up to benefit us. We don't want to be killed, therefore killing is bad. We don't want others to take our stuff and so stealing is bad. And speech is just the meanings we assigned to random sound effects. If we lacked vocal chords, we most likely would have still communicated to each other via body language and whatever sounds we could make, similar to animals. The fact that I can ask for a hamburger and someone gives me a hamburger shouldn't baffle you to point of conceding that an anthropomorphic deity must have magically wished it all into existence.

Your problem is that you're approaching all this "chance" and "probability" like there was a goal already in mind. You assume that oxygen breathing, water drinking creatures were the desired end product, and so the fact that Earth is mostly oxygen and water astounds you. What an impossible coincidence for the planet we live on to be made of the things we need! You're not considering that the same result would happen in any other "not so fine tuned" scenario. On a world composed of 99% Nitrogen that was cast in darkness, a Nitrogen based, night-vision capable being would be communicating to each other through a series of blinking lights just how amazing it was that they "happen" to be born on such a perfectly compatible planet.

If the freezer wasn't already set to the popsicle forming temperature, then there would be no popsicles to marvel over the miracle of their existence.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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14-03-2013, 12:38 AM
RE: Please present explanations which make philosophical naturalism plausible
(13-03-2013 05:11 AM)Godexists Wrote:  Please present evidence, that makes naturalistic explanations plausible in regard of :

the existence and origin of the universe
its fine tuning
existence of planets
chemical evolution
abiogenesis
sex
morals
conscience
the hability of speech
complex and codified information stored in DNA
Now you'll have to excuse me for this, I don't exactly have the time at the moment to burn through the whole thread, so I'll just go right ahead and say it:

Has anybody asked our argumentatively rusty theistic opponent what exactly he means by "complex and codified information stored in DNA"?

(assuming of course he has not simply driven us by by now...)

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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14-03-2013, 12:47 AM
RE: Please present explanations which make philosophical naturalism plausible
(13-03-2013 05:11 AM)Godexists Wrote:  Please present evidence, that makes naturalistic explanations plausible in regard of :

the existence and origin of the universe
its fine tuning
existence of planets
chemical evolution
abiogenesis
sex
morals
conscience
the hability of speech
complex and codified information stored in DNA

And BTW, what a lazy ass. Every single one of the points above is addressed, and known thoroughly by experts in each field, with no gods required. Instead of going to find the answers for each, for himself, he comes here and expects it all to be handed to him on a silver platter, like a spoiled 2 year old brat. Waa waa waa. The answers to 3 - 10 in his list are well known to those educated in those fields. Go do your own homework, and after it's done, come and ask intelligent questions. If he can't be bothered to do the work, he can take a flying leap, and fuck off.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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14-03-2013, 01:03 AM
RE: Please present explanations which make philosophical naturalism plausible
(13-03-2013 05:11 AM)Godexists Wrote:  Please present evidence, that makes naturalistic explanations plausible in regard of :

the existence and origin of the universe
its fine tuning
existence of planets
chemical evolution
abiogenesis
sex
morals
conscience
the hability of speech
complex and codified information stored in DNA

The thing of it is, if you asked the same question as an inquisitive mind, with the default answer being "I don't know," we would be more honest and open for discussion with you. We would concede some points and voice our doubts about certain things. But one look at your not-so-subtle username and we know you're just trying to find logic gaps to jam your God wedge into. You don't care about knowledge and truth and we all know it.

So my counter statement to you would be -

Please present evidence that makes divine deistic explanations plausible in regards to:

anything



...since we've never experienced anything deistic and have no reason to make such assertions.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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14-03-2013, 04:18 AM
RE: Please present explanations which make philosophical naturalism plausible
(14-03-2013 12:47 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(13-03-2013 05:11 AM)Godexists Wrote:  Please present evidence, that makes naturalistic explanations plausible in regard of :

the existence and origin of the universe
its fine tuning
existence of planets
chemical evolution
abiogenesis
sex
morals
conscience
the hability of speech
complex and codified information stored in DNA

And BTW, what a lazy ass. Every single one of the points above is addressed, and known thoroughly by experts in each field, with no gods required. Instead of going to find the answers for each, for himself, he comes here and expects it all to be handed to him on a silver platter, like a spoiled 2 year old brat. Waa waa waa. The answers to 3 - 10 in his list are well known to those educated in those fields. Go do your own homework, and after it's done, come and ask intelligent questions. If he can't be bothered to do the work, he can take a flying leap, and fuck off.
No God required ? then you should be able to provide evidence, that a book like Shakespeares Hamlet can arise by chance, without a intelligent author involved ?
that would be the equivalent of the information stored in DNA arise by chance.
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14-03-2013, 04:40 AM
RE: Please present explanations which make philosophical naturalism plausible
And there you have it.

You really have not done your homework, God's-exits, have you?

Everyone else knows that Hamlet did arise by chance.

It was written by an infinite number of monkeys on an infinite number of typewriters over an infinite amount of time.

No gods required.

I rest my case.

Drinking Beverage

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14-03-2013, 05:38 AM (This post was last modified: 14-03-2013 05:44 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Please present explanations which make philosophical naturalism plausible
(14-03-2013 04:18 AM)Godexists Wrote:  No God required ? then you should be able to provide evidence, that a book like Shakespeares Hamlet can arise by chance, without a intelligent author involved ?
that would be the equivalent of the information stored in DNA arise by chance.

For starters, this is the logical fallacy of the False Analogy. If however you still wanted to actually compare the two objectively, as opposed to just making shit up...



First, define 'information' as it regards to DNA.

Second, explain how you would quantify and measure it.

Third, actually quantify and measure it.

Fourth, apply the same set of steps to 'Hamlet'.

Only then can you compare the two. Anything less, and you're talking our of your ass.



So until then, you can take your presuppositions and shove them up your ass. Drinking Beverage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Models_of_DNA_evolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_world_hypothesis
http://ww2.chemistry.gatech.edu/hud/node/30
http://www.agriculture.purdue.edu/agricu...ight6.html
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/ev...igin.shtml

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14-03-2013, 05:49 AM
RE: Please present explanations which make philosophical naturalism plausible
(14-03-2013 04:18 AM)Godexists Wrote:  
(14-03-2013 12:47 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  And BTW, what a lazy ass. Every single one of the points above is addressed, and known thoroughly by experts in each field, with no gods required. Instead of going to find the answers for each, for himself, he comes here and expects it all to be handed to him on a silver platter, like a spoiled 2 year old brat. Waa waa waa. The answers to 3 - 10 in his list are well known to those educated in those fields. Go do your own homework, and after it's done, come and ask intelligent questions. If he can't be bothered to do the work, he can take a flying leap, and fuck off.
No God required ? then you should be able to provide evidence, that a book like Shakespeares Hamlet can arise by chance, without a intelligent author involved ?
that would be the equivalent of the information stored in DNA arise by chance.


I'm sorry? Information? What information?

Please, define exactly what this "information" is and how it is used/implemented.


Preferably without chucking fallacies everywhere like you did just then.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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14-03-2013, 06:06 AM
RE: Please present explanations which make philosophical naturalism plausible
Hey, GE.

First of all, I'd like to apologise for all of the forum members that have attacked you on a personal level just because you're a Theist and just because you don't seem to support evolution. They are what we in the industry like to call "assholes".

I'm not going to go through your list, because it seems to have been dealt with already. I hope that you found the information that EKills provided you helpful.

On the subject of naturalism, you are correct that naturalism, the notion that every phenomenon in the universe is the result of the interaction of matter and energy, is indemonstrable. Science has adopted naturalism methodologically; what is called methodological naturalism. This does not, however, invalidate science in any way.

Quote:No God required ? then you should be able to provide evidence, that a
book like Shakespeares Hamlet can arise by chance, without a intelligent
author involved ?

that would be the equivalent of the information stored in DNA arise by chance.

As a memeticist, I am happy to explain the relationship between Shakespeare and evolution.

Shakespeare clearly illustrates the phenomenon of descent with modification.

The Greeks wrote tragedies but never put violence on stage. Fast forward to the Roman author, Seneca, who studied Greek tragedy and wrote "closet dramas", tragedies that showed violence gratuitously but that were intended to be read and not put on stage. Fast forward to the Renaissance and Europeans discovering ancient texts. Shakespeare stumbles across Seneca and bases his first tragedy, Titus Andronicus, on Seneca's style and fills the play with horrific violence. Fast forward to Hamlet and his tragedy style has evolved to the point that he no longer portrays as much violence on stage.

What is important to note is that the word "random" has a specific meaning in evolution. Random occurs at the level of the mutation, not selection. The mutation is random. Whether or not it works is another situation entirely.

Also, a play like Hamlet is a PHENOTYPE, meaning it is the expression of a meme within the context of an environment. The memotype, the actual memetic code, did not require a creator, but the specific play required a writer, in much the same way that a child requires a womb.

It's like restaurants. Every restaurant is a variation on a theme (variation) due to a random mutation (Thai, veggy Thai, fast food Thai, authentic Thai, high end Thai, Thai to go, Thai on a stick...) that requires a restauanteur in order to express the memetic code, each restaurant is a phenotype, selection occurs at the level of the phenotype, and which specific restaurants survive is based entirely on their interaction with their environment.

Incidentally, just for shits and giggles, they recently used a DNA molecule to encode every single one of Shakespeare's sonnets. Pretty awesome stuff with some very serious ramifications for the study of replicators.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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