Please provide a Geocentric diagram
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26-01-2013, 07:35 AM
RE: Please provide a Geocentric diagram
(25-01-2013 04:56 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  ...wait.

This isn't a joke.

AtheismExposed... you actually believe this?


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26-01-2013, 08:07 AM
RE: Please provide a Geocentric diagram
(25-01-2013 04:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  I don't think it is possible that he is that stupid. I'm going with the assumption that this is parody. Dodgy

My thoughts exactly.
If fact, it's the only thought I can go with without me doing severe harm to myself as a result of extreme exposure to ignorance and stupidity. Bangin

So, AE.... well played, well played.

Next topic now.....

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26-01-2013, 02:03 PM
RE: Please provide a Geocentric diagram
Right, some people seem to be having trouble grasping this concept, so I propose a thought experiment.

You have two guys. Let's call them Douglas and Otto for no particular reason. Both awake to find themselves inside a rectangular box. They have no memory of being put inside the box, in fact no memory of the concept of there being anything outside, or indeed "outside" as a concept.

Upon exploring the box, they notice that the box is apparently moving. They can feel it through their feet and in their inner-ear that the box is apparently under acceleration, they can sense periodic changes in vertical and lateral acceleration back and forth. Then Douglas discovers in one corner a pamphlet explaining that the box is actually on a rollercoaster at a themepark and the pair of them were drugged and put in the box by the owner and also that eventually the ride will end and the park will close.

The answer is simple, right? Just accept your fate, give it a few hours and eventually box will open, the park will close and everyone gets to go home. But for Otto, this isn't enough. He unleashes a string of insults at the owner (while simultaneously calling his existence a lie) and at Douglas and spends the next few hours using some dodgy maths to map out the periodic shifts in motion of the box and uses it to draw out a squiggly map of the apparent bounds of the box universe.

Douglas still thinks this is very silly and just sits in the corner minding his own business while Otto laboriously scrawls nonsense all over the walls and floor.

Imagine Otto's surprise and RAGE when the ride slows, the hidden door on the side of the box opens and daylight comes streaming in.

"BUT THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING OUTSIDE!"
"I gave you a note explaining everything, dimwit. And why have you covered all the walls in graffiti? I hope you're going to clean that up."

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26-01-2013, 02:09 PM
RE: Please provide a Geocentric diagram
(26-01-2013 02:03 PM)AtheismExposed Wrote:  Right, some people seem to be having trouble grasping this concept, so I propose a thought experiment.

You have two guys. Let's call them Douglas and Otto for no particular reason. Both awake to find themselves inside a rectangular box. They have no memory of being put inside the box, in fact no memory of the concept of there being anything outside, or indeed "outside" as a concept.

Upon exploring the box, they notice that the box is apparently moving. They can feel it through their feet and in their inner-ear that the box is apparently under acceleration, they can sense periodic changes in vertical and lateral acceleration back and forth. Then Douglas discovers in one corner a pamphlet explaining that the box is actually on a rollercoaster at a themepark and the pair of them were drugged and put in the box by the owner and also that eventually the ride will end and the park will close.

The answer is simple, right? Just accept your fate, give it a few hours and eventually box will open, the park will close and everyone gets to go home. But for Otto, this isn't enough. He unleashes a string of insults at the owner (while simultaneously calling his existence a lie) and at Douglas and spends the next few hours using some dodgy maths to map out the periodic shifts in motion of the box and uses it to draw out a squiggly map of the apparent bounds of the box universe.

Douglas still thinks this is very silly and just sits in the corner minding his own business while Otto laboriously scrawls nonsense all over the walls and floor.

Imagine Otto's surprise and RAGE when the ride slows, the hidden door on the side of the box opens and daylight comes streaming in.

"BUT THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING OUTSIDE!"
"I gave you a note explaining everything, dimwit. And why have you covered all the walls in graffiti? I hope you're going to clean that up."
No reason for Otto to have RAGE. Can you explain that unconnected aspect of the story?

Otto takes a skeptical approach and using critical thinking in combination with his senses to determine where they are in their shifts. He didn't Think there was no evidence of anything outside or else he wouldn't be calculating that they were moving in some type of space relative outside their rectangular box.

Your analogy that proves nothing other than your willingness to accept an easy answer is full of holes and fails to add up.

BTW: You also came very quite close to just explaining the movie Cube.

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26-01-2013, 02:38 PM (This post was last modified: 26-01-2013 02:43 PM by Phaedrus.)
RE: Please provide a Geocentric diagram
AE, I don't give a shit about your theology or your roller coaster analogy. I'm talking geocentrism vs. heliocentrism.


The problem with your model is that you can LOOK UP and see that the stars and planets do not move in simple circles. They appear move in complex paths, with planets looping around and sometimes moving retrograde. You can't demonstrate this with simple circles. It took Ptolemy, probably the greatest geocentrist, thirteen volumes to explain the movement of just a few planets; he wasn't even aware of Neptune or Uranus or the moons of Jupiter and Saturn, or any of that. For the record, his epicycle theory is an overly-complicated system tangentially related to orbital resonances, mathematical relationships between the orbital periods of large masses which arise from cumulative periodic action.

The simplest explanation for the complex motion of objects in the sky is a compound of several simple motions:
Rotation of the Earth
Earth's orbit around the Sun
Moon's orbit around the Earth
Orbits of the planets, asteroids, and other bodies around the Sun, or their primary body (if they're moons)
Movement of stars relative to the Sun

The video you linked did not explain eclipses.

You have yet to answer stellar parallax, you've only said, "Herp, doesn't exist" without justification.

In your video you state that modern physics requires that orbits be circular, not elliptical.... I don't even.... The first goddamn law of planetary motion is "The orbit of every planet is an ellipse with the sun at one of the two foci."

Your understanding of the physics of planetary retrograde motion is also flawed. Venus doesn't actually reverse in its orbit. It just looks like it does because it's further around its orbit than Earth is by 1/2pi to 3/2pi radians. It's just geometry and perspective, vs. your model requiring actual reversal of Venus' motion, violating conservation of momentum. You could learn this on google in ten seconds.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
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26-01-2013, 02:39 PM
RE: Please provide a Geocentric diagram
I think the set up for that analogy is quite good.

I'm with Clyde though, the characterisation is flawed. There is no reason for Otto to be angry, just curious.

To make the analogy more accurate, Douglas should be praying to the owner because he fears/loves them because the pamphlet has told him to and Otto needs to read the pamphlet and find mistakes / different fonts / inconsistencies ' written in handwriting strangely similar to Douglas's to account for his skepticism.

The conclusion to the analogy should be left open to allow the reader to decide which ending is most appealing / likely.

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26-01-2013, 07:07 PM
RE: Please provide a Geocentric diagram
That analogy is so flawed it doesn't even make sense.The universe isn't non-observable and non-measurable as you suggest. For your analogy to be correct, it would have to be a clear box with measurement devices all around it. These devices would be highly accurate and given speed, altitude, composition, etc of the roller coaster ride. Your analogy only makes sense if we're using Bronze Age science.

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26-01-2013, 07:56 PM
RE: Please provide a Geocentric diagram
A further correction would also be that the pamphlet would have to say that you were actually on a Merry-Go-Round, when in fact you're clearly on a rollercoaster.



Basically what we're saying is that you're 24 cents short of a quarter.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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28-01-2013, 10:28 AM
RE: Please provide a Geocentric diagram
Okay, . . . just a quick comment. For the entirety of the universe to move around a stationary earth, . . . would the more distant materials [by default] more faster than near objects? For them to seem to have the same speed in the sky, they can't have the same actual "speed". If they did, closer objects would rotate faster. You wouldn't see the same constellations each night. It would be a different sky each night.
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28-01-2013, 01:21 PM
RE: Please provide a Geocentric diagram
(28-01-2013 10:28 AM)DeavonReye Wrote:  Okay, . . . just a quick comment. For the entirety of the universe to move around a stationary earth, . . . would the more distant materials [by default] more faster than near objects? For them to seem to have the same speed in the sky, they can't have the same actual "speed". If they did, closer objects would rotate faster. You wouldn't see the same constellations each night. It would be a different sky each night.
You do see a different sky each night. The planets, being set into the inner heliospheres, move at a different orbital velocity than the stellar heliosphere.

If you mean that each individual star is set at a different distance from earth, if that were the case then yes, you would obviously see them move at different orbital velocities around the earth and you are correct in saying the constellations wouldn't appear the same each night.

The fact that we do see them in the same configuration each night is a pretty solid evidence that they are the same distance from us and set into a spherical structure which revolves around us once per day Smile

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