Poland Holocaust bill.
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28-01-2018, 04:02 AM
Poland Holocaust bill.
Two days ago lower house of polish Parliament voted yes on new bill dealing with Holocaust; it awaits voting in Senate and president signature.According to it saying that Poles were in part responsible for crimes of III Reich will result in fines or imprisonment. It also banned use of polish death camps phrase.

I see no big problem with second thing - there were no Polish death camps despite Yesh Atid Chairman Yair Lapid ignorant claims. Still ignorance can't be banned so I don't see it as a smart move. First part of bill is however much more problematic - Poles were complicit in Shoah, one has only to remember szmalcowniki. Depending on exact wording of bill saying this simple truth may soon be punishable*. Given what is happening in Poland I see a big problem here, another attempt at historical revisionism and creating society convinced of it's own holiness.


*Allegedly doing this as academic activity won't be punishable but I have doubts about PiS controlled legislature caring about letter of the law, when said letter won't be liked by courts overlords.

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28-01-2018, 05:01 AM
RE: Poland Holocaust bill.
That really sucks. It seems a dumb move to me, too. Trying to gag people makes them look guilty.

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28-01-2018, 05:18 AM
RE: Poland Holocaust bill.
(28-01-2018 05:01 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  That really sucks. It seems a dumb move to me, too. Trying to gag people makes them look guilty.

It seems that they're trying to gag people to avoid mentioning guilt altogether.

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28-01-2018, 05:46 AM
RE: Poland Holocaust bill.
Most if not all countries occupied by Germany in WWII, or having been under german influence had notable numbers of collaborateurs. Thats where the international divisions and brigades in the Wehrmacht came from.

Imho Poland just took it a step further than the other culprits by outlawing free speech regarding this historically documented fact.
That the whole of europe and eastern europe in particular was antisemitic has already been discussed and needs no further mention i think. Being militarily attacked by Germany and being antisemitic yourself are two separate issues, and the polish government should stop to pretend as if one makes up for the other.

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28-01-2018, 05:57 AM
RE: Poland Holocaust bill.
(28-01-2018 05:46 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Most if not all countries occupied by Germany in WWII, or having been under german influence had notable numbers of collaborateurs. Thats where the international divisions and brigades in the Wehrmacht came from.

Imho Poland just took it a step further than the other culprits by outlawing free speech regarding this historically documented fact.
That the whole of europe and eastern europe in particular was antisemitic has already been discussed and needs no further mention i think. Being militarily attacked by Germany and being antisemitic yourself are two separate issues, and the polish government should stop to pretend as if one makes up for the other.

I think it looks somewhat different I think - it's not about German invasion making up for country being antisemitic. Antisemitism before invasion can be used to bolster preferred narrative after all - like, we had our differences and there were excesses but when Germans attacked Poles saved Jews (which while far from being all true is not false).

It is about setting the narrative - Germans were solely responsible and there were no polish death camps (with second part of sentence being true) - that will allow Poles to be proud, which would fit with gov nationalist themes.

Having said that it is idiotic move - truth of the events will not be altered by this and while it may please gov fanbase it certainly will not improve Poland international standing.

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28-01-2018, 06:08 AM
RE: Poland Holocaust bill.
(28-01-2018 05:57 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  It is about setting the narrative - Germans were solely responsible and there were no polish death camps (with second part of sentence being true) - that will allow Poles to be proud, which would fit with gov nationalist themes.

I see. You are saying this is a part of a movement of "Make Poland proud again", in an extreme form where anything that contradicts the narrative, it has ot be suppressed?

You are correct tho, its stupid. There are a lot of things polish people can be proud of, without trying to "whitewash" history, or trying ot get rid of the parts that dont fit the narrative.

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28-01-2018, 06:31 AM
RE: Poland Holocaust bill.
(28-01-2018 06:08 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(28-01-2018 05:57 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  It is about setting the narrative - Germans were solely responsible and there were no polish death camps (with second part of sentence being true) - that will allow Poles to be proud, which would fit with gov nationalist themes.

I see. You are saying this is a part of a movement of "Make Poland proud again", in an extreme form where anything that contradicts the narrative, it has ot be suppressed?

I'm saying how I see it. I'm not necessarily right on this one. But "making Poland proud again" seems to be apt description.

It's not about suppressing everything as bill leave academic research and art endeavors out of this. It appears to be more about silencing opposing voices among general population and thus enforcing historic conformity. Of course, it is nothing good but it's not total suppression.

Quote:You are correct tho, its stupid. There are a lot of things polish people can be proud of, without trying to "whitewash" history, or trying ot get rid of the parts that dont fit the narrative.

It is stupid but since when nationalists and authoritarians were wellsprings of good ideas?

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28-01-2018, 09:49 AM
RE: Poland Holocaust bill.
Well, to conflate the Czech thread with this one: much of Europe is becoming more nationalistic. Hence Brexit.

But yes, any law outlawing free speech is a great concern, and especially where there are legitimate criticisms to be made as is the case with Poland and the holocaust. It is nothing short of denialism to claim that Poland officials and civilians didn't persecute the Jews during German occupation. The fact is that they did, and there are documented cases of this which bear no links to Nazi activity. It may not have been official government policy, but it was certainly the case that the Polish targeted and murdered innocent Jews.

From the 1880's under Soviet rule they were subjected to pogroms, also laws were put in place against the Jews, and consequently a culture of anti-Semitism permeated. In direct response to that persecution many Jews migrated all the way to the US (about 2 million from Poland during the years 1880-1925).

Poland does not have a history to be proud of when it comes to their Jewish population. Some of it can be attributed to Soviet occupation, and some can be attributed to German occupation, but the fact remains that interwar Poland itself was undeniably an anti-Semitic country with laws in place discriminating against the Jews. Anyone who denies that is an idiot.

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28-01-2018, 10:22 AM
RE: Poland Holocaust bill.
I should further note the creation of Israel from the British colony is further evidence of the fact that Jews were forcibly displaced from their anti-Semitic European homelands, not that anyone should be surprised by that or that there is any doubt about that fact. I never learned much about the Jews in school, and in fact I can remember having one quite anti-Semitic teacher.

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28-01-2018, 10:35 AM
RE: Poland Holocaust bill.
(28-01-2018 09:49 AM)Aractus Wrote:  But yes, any law outlawing free speech is a great concern, and especially where there are legitimate criticisms to be made as is the case with Poland and the holocaust. It is nothing short of denialism to claim that Poland officials and civilians didn't persecute the Jews during German occupation. The fact is that they did, and there are documented cases of this which bear no links to Nazi activity.

Yes, Polish judges worked well with Germans ones when it came to expropriating Jewish goods [S. Zgliczyński, How the Poles helped the Germans to kill Jews, p.107, Warszawa 2013]
and history of szmalcowniki is too well known to mention it further.

Quote:It may not have been official government policy, but it was certainly the case that the Polish targeted and murdered innocent Jews.

You do realize that whatever official gov Poland had during the German occupation was in London? And given that it backed actions of Żegota I find your words to have no basis at all. Killing Jews wasn't official policy of Polish Government in Exile.

Quote:From the 1880's under Soviet rule they were subjected to pogroms, also laws were put in place against the Jews, and consequently a culture of anti-Semitism permeated.

There was no Soviet rule in 1880's. Drinking Beverage

Nor Poles could be (fully?) blamed for whatever happened during the years of Vistula Land existence.

Quote:Poland does not have a history to be proud of when it comes to their Jewish population. Some of it can be attributed to Soviet occupation, and some can be attributed to German occupation, but the fact remains that interwar Poland itself was undeniably an anti-Semitic country with laws in place discriminating against the Jews. Anyone who denies that is an idiot.

Fact that II RP was anti-semitic is indeed well known if not fully accepted in right wing circles. AFAiK however bill deals with nazi crimes - it isn't about surpressing knowledge about Poland antisemitism prior to 1939.

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