Poland Holocaust bill.
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28-01-2018, 07:45 PM
RE: Poland Holocaust bill.
(28-01-2018 10:35 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  There was no Soviet rule in 1880's. Drinking Beverage

Nor Poles could be (fully?) blamed for whatever happened during the years of Vistula Land existence.

Yeah OK I should have said Russian Empire, they weren't the Soviet Union. Poland was under Russian Empire rule until 1918. Yes they can't be fully blamed for atrocities against the Jews in that period, but they can be blamed for the atrocities starting in 1918 with "interwar Poland" and ending at the fall of WWII. Of course the war period I am talking specifically in events orchestrated by or carried out by the Polish either without German involvement or with little German influence like the Jedwabne pogrom, and note also the Kielce pogrom of 1946 occurred a full 10 months after the end of WWII (although to the Pole's credit at least those responsible for that event were held to account in court).

The UK also does not have a history to be proud of, in fact hardly any European country does when it comes to the Jews. Scholars have estimated that before Russian Empire rule of Poland about 80% of the world's Jews lived in Poland. That figure is a reflection on the long held anti-Semitic views and treatment in other parts of Europe like France, Spain, and the UK. In the Middle Ages, Spain had a large Jewish population that had lived in the Spanish region since the Roman Empire. Of course during the Spanish Inquisition they were no longer free to practise their beliefs without persecution. This is one of the reasons I can't abide people on forums like this who feel the need to be so intolerant of other people's beliefs.

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29-01-2018, 02:43 AM
RE: Poland Holocaust bill.
(28-01-2018 07:45 PM)Aractus Wrote:  Yes they can't be fully blamed for atrocities against the Jews in that period, but they can be blamed for the atrocities starting in 1918 with "interwar Poland" and ending at the fall of WWII. Of course the war period I am talking specifically in events orchestrated by or carried out by the Polish either without German involvement or with little German influence like the Jedwabne pogrom, and note also the Kielce pogrom of 1946 occurred a full 10 months after the end of WWII (although to the Pole's credit at least those responsible for that event were held to account in court).

As I said in previous post II RP that is interwar Poland was antisemitic country and it didn't suddenly changed with war ending, hence the Kielce. Antisemitism was also used by rulers of Polish People Republic.

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30-01-2018, 05:06 PM
RE: Poland Holocaust bill.
I have avoided this tread for a variety of reasons.

My family name is obviously German. I continue to have a significant level of guilt due to the fact of the damage done to Eastern Europe done by probably relatives. I as a cosiquence did travel to Poland, the Check republic Hungary and Austria as if the few dollars I spent could make up for the evil my relatives could have done.

I find it offensive that neo-nazis have found a home in those countries. Yes Hungray was an ally of the nazis it still did suffer because of them.

Nationalism in all its forms is at best short sighted. We are seeing that here in the US currently.

Right Wing Nationalism is a curse. I am seeing that far to often in European countries and it very much troubles me.
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30-01-2018, 05:10 PM
RE: Poland Holocaust bill.
(30-01-2018 05:06 PM)JAH Wrote:  I have avoided this tread for a variety of reasons.

My family name is obviously German. I continue to have a significant level of guilt due to the fact of the damage done to Eastern Europe done by probably relatives. I as a cosiquence did travel to Poland, the Check republic Hungary and Austria as if the few dollars I spent could make up for the evil my relatives could have done.

I find it offensive that neo-nazis have found a home in those countries. Yes Hungray was an ally of the nazis it still did suffer because of them.

Nationalism in all its forms is at best short sighted. We are seeing that here in the US currently.

Right Wing Nationalism is a curse. I am seeing that far to often in European countries and it very much troubles me.

Fact that there are neo-nazis in Poland I find offensive, sad and horrifying. As for nationalism being a curse - I suppose I can agree with such description.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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31-01-2018, 11:55 AM
RE: Poland Holocaust bill.
Situation is heating it seems:

The Times of Israel coverage

AlJazeera take

EU Observer thoughts

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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31-01-2018, 07:28 PM
RE: Poland Holocaust bill.
When I visited Poland I made a trip to the Warsaw Ghetto. I also made a trip to Oswiecim. The long walk from the end of the train line to the crematory was disheartening particularly when you looked to right and left and understood that rude barracks extended out to the fences there.

I think the right wing Polish government has a point when saying they were run by Germans and had noting to do with the Polish government, which was in fact in exile.

The law as I can discern is so broad that suggesting that Poles participated in the holocaust could be considered a violation.

Who built the fences and the barracks who built the rail line. I do not and will not condemn those people who needed work.

This law seems so broad that pointing out the above may be punishable.

I wish you luck.
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01-02-2018, 01:41 AM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2018 02:14 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Poland Holocaust bill.
(31-01-2018 07:28 PM)JAH Wrote:  When I visited Poland I made a trip to the Warsaw Ghetto. I also made a trip to Oswiecim. The long walk from the end of the train line to the crematory was disheartening particularly when you looked to right and left and understood that rude barracks extended out to the fences there.

I think the right wing Polish government has a point when saying they were run by Germans and had noting to do with the Polish government, which was in fact in exile.

It does not have a point. It is simply right in this regard. But bill deals with more than with "polish death camps" nonsense as it is also attempt at suppressing the truth of Poles helping to kill Jews.

Quote:The law as I can discern is so broad that suggesting that Poles participated in the holocaust could be considered a violation.

Who built the fences and the barracks who built the rail line. I do not and will not condemn those people who needed work.

This law seems so broad that pointing out the above may be punishable.

I wish you luck.

Given what I read this bill if it will pass will be a mess with courts being instance that will render final verdict on how it should be interpreted. Courts are in PiS hands though...


ETA: Bill passed through senate.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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06-02-2018, 12:23 PM
RE: Poland Holocaust bill.
Information is sketchy but it looks like chief pen holder of Poland signed "holocaust bill" and then sent it to Constitutional Court. Constitutional Court which is controlled by PiS.

I guess that from now saying that Poles helped nazis to kill Jews will be punishable by courts of this fascist country.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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06-02-2018, 07:13 PM
RE: Poland Holocaust bill.
I see this as legislating thought crime. Nothing positive can come of it.

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06-02-2018, 07:22 PM
RE: Poland Holocaust bill.
(06-02-2018 07:13 PM)Aractus Wrote:  I see this as legislating thought crime.

Hardly. "Just" ordinary censure. Even "benevolent" one given allowances for educational and artistic activities Dodgy.

Quote:Nothing positive can come of it.

Bill is shit. But in theory it could result in more people taking interest in history, not nationalists of course as they already have their truth, but perhaps people interesting in what really happened. I doubt it however. But I won't say that nothing positive can come out of it - showing PiS true color is positive enough thing even if cost is far too high.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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