Poland and National Plan of Procreation.
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22-01-2016, 09:15 AM
RE: Poland and National Plan of Procreation.
(22-01-2016 08:18 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(22-01-2016 07:43 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Yes, but in some places madness is more prevalent than in others.

Not just prevalent ... worse ... it's socially acceptable.

Weeping


Oh, like those festivals where they toss babies from the tops of buildings? Or the one where they spin a dog around over a body of water? Or those ones in Japan that involve moving giant penis statues through the streets? What about that one where Jews slaughter chickens in the street by swing them around their heads by the chicken's neck?

People be crazy man...

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22-01-2016, 10:50 AM
RE: Poland and National Plan of Procreation.
(22-01-2016 08:57 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Years behind Iron Curtain didn't immunize Poles to propaganda, only it specific brand (and even this is not always the case). It's not the same though as being able to think critically and wanting of clear answers didn't wane. So communists narration was replaced by church narration, enemies changed but essence remained. Then it were dogs of international capital who wanted to destroy workers paradise, now it's euro-homo-leftist-jewish internationale which want do end the Antemurale Christianitatis as which True Poles intoxicated by national and catholic propaganda see country in which I live.
Interesting observation which we can confirm as one of the few population groups that shared completely different political and social systems at the same time. I think germans were/are pretty good guinea pigs if you want to compare two systems like capitalism/pluralism and communism/socialism and the propaganda.

Observation 1:
In commie times the GDR was much more adamant than the FRG in claiming how anti-fascist they are, even calling the FRG itself somewhat fascist.
Now after the iron curtain fell, and commie propaganda stopped on eastern germans, guess where the most german neo-nazis can be found now, comparatively by a large margin, and where they popped up in no time in 1990? Right, eastern german states. Looks like the more pressure was applied ot them via propaganda, the more it pushed quite a lot of them in exactly the opposite direction....closeted though it seems, but since 1990 there were there.

No $hit, i met one of those last week on teamspeak, where he stated in a very calm and matter of-fact style that the 3rd Reich was forced into WWII, that Poland fired the first shots, and the "west" didnt want germany to become communist and therefore suuported Adolf with money, by making GM transfer huge sums of cash via her german daughter Opel.
My jaws, literally dropped. As i asked what proof he had, he answered that he could link me to some websites, but they usually get immediately taken down by the government (conspiracy!!!!!).
As i asked him rethorically if "no evidence" is the evidence for his "theory" he said "yes" and continued to ramble as if he didnt say something utterly and completely insane.

Observation 2
The GDR was also never stopping to point out how important "brotherhood" of nations is, and how far advanced they are in loving all their commie brethren from Vietnam, Cuba, mother Russia, etc.
Now guess, where you find the most fucking xenophobes in 2016, guess where asylum shelters are burning every once in a while for more than two decades now.

Looks like Communism/Socialism has caused such an incredible backlash, that a lot of those people are now buying any kind of bullshit, as long as it is directly opposed to what they once were indoctrinated with, thus just getting indoctrinated again, just with different stuff.
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22-01-2016, 11:11 AM (This post was last modified: 23-01-2016 01:01 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Poland and National Plan of Procreation.
(22-01-2016 10:50 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Interesting observation which we can confirm as one of the few population groups that shared completely different political and social systems at the same time. I think germans were/are pretty good guinea pigs if you want to compare two systems like capitalism/pluralism and communism/socialism and the propaganda.

Observation 1:
In commie times the GDR was much more adamant than the FRG in claiming how anti-fascist they are, even calling the FRG itself somewhat fascist.
Now after the iron curtain fell, and commie propaganda stopped on eastern germans, guess where the most german neo-nazis can be found now, comparatively by a large margin, and where they popped up in no time in 1990? Right, eastern german states. Looks like the more pressure was applied ot them via propaganda, the more it pushed quite a lot of them in exactly the opposite direction....closeted though it seems, but since 1990 there were there.

As a part of Soviet empire GDR was in essence forced or "forced" to claim that the other Germany is/was fascist. GDR was anti-fascist by definition - just as god is omnibenevolent even when he commits genocide, Russia and her satelites are anti-fascist by it's very definition as socialist countries. Forces of progress could not be contaminated with fascism so obviously guilt was on the side of West Germany.

So it isn't about neo-nazis suddenly springing where there weren't before; it's only info about their existence that is no longer suppresed.

(22-01-2016 10:50 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  No $hit, i met one of those last week on teamspeak, where he stated in a very calm and matter of-fact style that the 3rd Reich was forced into WWII, that Poland fired the first shots, and the "west" didnt want germany to become communist and therefore suuported Adolf with money, by making GM transfer huge sums of cash via her german daughter Opel.
My jaws, literally dropped. As i asked what proof he had, he answered that he could link me to some websites, but they usually get immediately taken down by the government (conspiracy!!!!!).
As i asked him rethorically if "no evidence" is the evidence for his "theory" he said "yes" and continued to ramble as if he didnt say something utterly and completely insane.

Reich was "forced" into war but not in the sense he think. Nazi "fixing" of the economy made war likely as Reich needed resources and plunder is a good way to attain such goal. So Reich was forced by it's own policy and ideology.

As for West I would say he is kinda right, I highly doubt that GB or USA wanted communist Germany. Sending money is another matter though. I've done a quick search and info about this is only on sites that I would call unreliable at best.

(22-01-2016 10:50 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Observation 2
The GDR was also never stopping to point out how important "brotherhood" of nations is, and how far advanced they are in loving all their commie brethren from Vietnam, Cuba, mother Russia, etc.
Now guess, where you find the most fucking xenophobes in 2016, guess where asylum shelters are burning every once in a while for more than two decades now.

Claims of internationalism were daily bread of communism so they say nothing about real opinions. People back then could be xenophobic as fuck but they still were oficialy internationalists.

But one also should remember that communism changed from internationalism to nationalism during WW II, if not earlier (or maybe in some cases later). Internationalists slogans may have still existed but essence was nationalistic.

(22-01-2016 10:50 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Looks like Communism/Socialism has caused such an incredible backlash, that a lot of those people are now buying any kind of bullshit, as long as it is directly opposed to what they once were indoctrinated with, thus just getting indoctrinated again, just with different stuff.

It may be somewhat true, but I doubt that truth is so simple. Some could indeed eperience reversal of opinion as propaganda changed, but others could simply start saying what they always thought but were unable to voice.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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24-01-2016, 02:12 AM
RE: Poland and National Plan of Procreation.
It seems madness is on the rise as there are plans for enthronement of Christ. Poland will be monarchy again it appears, though it remains mystery how new sovereign will communicate with his subjects.

As for now it's not certain but if that happens gov should get Nobel prize in physics for making (kinda) modern nation to go back in time to XV century.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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24-01-2016, 08:10 AM
RE: Poland and National Plan of Procreation.
Hungary is in a quite similar situation, let me give an overview so you can understand better why this is happening.

- The majority of poles (and hungarians) are conservative catholics, especially the older generations. During the 45 years of communism, this didn't change, but their worldview was so opposed to the regime's official one that most of them refused to even look at its' propaganda, they cocooned themselves in and were in a sort of passive resistance, implanting a sort of doublespeak on their children (seem like a good communist on the outside but be a right-wing conservative when you're amongst people you can trust not to be snitches). Basically a counter-propaganda but a propaganda nontheless.
- With the system change in 1990, the younger generation of former communists and liberals were in a sort of ideological vacuum. They happily latched on everything that came from the formerly demonized west and imported without critique, a set of ideologies prevalent in the western european liberal parties: political correctness, anti-fascism, and a zealous letter-by-letter implementation of human rights, without regard to how different polish society is to e.g. french or holland. These idealistic points were enough to convince the undecideds, win them several elections and increase their prevalence in the press, especially internet-based news portals - meanwhile, the political right stagnated because of the resigned apathy many of their potential supporters were in and their media presence remained constrained to a few news agencies, constantly attacked by the left for being too conservative and "fascist". Neutral media companies are mostly nonexistant in either country.
- What happened now in Poland is analogous to the hungarian elections in 2010. The left, after a disastrous and hugely unpopular 4-year cycle, lost to the conservative right in an unprecedented windfall, while the majority of the press remains left-leaning and thus dissatisfied with the government's decisions stemming from conservative catholic ideology - back when the left was in charge, the right-wing newspapers complained about ideological laws too, but their numbers, international connections, and thus voice, was much less audible.
- What's going on now is a sort of "revenge" for the former governments' (from a conservative viewpoint) nonsensical and oppressive laws - eventually things will hopefully settle down and the situation will normalize. Unlike Hungary, Poland, as far as I know, isn't susceptible towards oligarchic tendencies, so polish democracy isn't in danger.
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24-01-2016, 08:28 AM
RE: Poland and National Plan of Procreation.
Very interesting analysis, thanks a lot!
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24-01-2016, 09:43 AM (This post was last modified: 24-01-2016 09:53 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Poland and National Plan of Procreation.
(24-01-2016 08:10 AM)Naridar Wrote:  - The majority of poles (and hungarians) are conservative catholics, especially the older generations. During the 45 years of communism, this didn't change, but their worldview was so opposed to the regime's official one that most of them refused to even look at its' propaganda, they cocooned themselves in and were in a sort of passive resistance, implanting a sort of doublespeak on their children (seem like a good communist on the outside but be a right-wing conservative when you're amongst people you can trust not to be snitches). Basically a counter-propaganda but a propaganda nontheless.

Don't know about Hungarians but with Poles situation looks kinda different. In theory 95% are catholics but that's just number (not necesarilly precise) of people christened. One should remember that only 60% of Poles have no doubt that god exists and only 54% is attending to mass regularly. Also most importantly I think only 29% say that faith is something that give sense in life*. Also conservatism could be putted into question. I would say that most Poles are people who wan't nothing to do with gov which electoral frequency proove.

Bigger problem is Poles worldview - communists were promoting and church is promoting manichean view of the world. Good and evil, noting in between, no grey zone. If you aren't with us you are against us - so atheist, homosexuals and socialist are polish outcasts not fit to be called True Pole cause such specimen is catholic, capitalist and heterosexual. Only homophoby can not be explained by taking a look on polish history - socialism and atheism are equaled with former regime. Case with homosexuality is more sinister - it stops from breeding, and Country and it's People are in need of new True Poles. One can't help but remember the other states in XX century which were against homosexuality for same reasons.

As for most of Poles heroically not changing their views during communist reign I think it's far from truth. They just changed it again as wind started flowing from the direction of Watican not Moscow. Now in Poland we have former commies sucking up to clergy, though they're ready to suck anyone whose influence would be prevalent in Poland.

Of course there also true clericals, liberals, nationalists, etc. but looking at rulling party I would say that they are honesty of beliefs is wanting.

(24-01-2016 08:10 AM)Naridar Wrote:  With the system change in 1990, the younger generation of former communists and liberals were in a sort of ideological vacuum. They happily latched on everything that came from the formerly demonized west and imported without critique, a set of ideologies prevalent in the western european liberal parties: political correctness, anti-fascism, and a zealous letter-by-letter implementation of human rights, without regard to how different polish society is to e.g. french or holland. These idealistic points were enough to convince the undecideds, win them several elections and increase their prevalence in the press, especially internet-based news portals - meanwhile, the political right stagnated because of the resigned apathy many of their potential supporters were in and their media presence remained constrained to a few news agencies, constantly attacked by the left for being too conservative and "fascist". Neutral media companies are mostly nonexistant in either country.

Mainly I agree but stagnation of right wasn't the case, in Poland at least. Implementation of Balcerowicz plan was right wingers work, same as concordate. Those aren't things that someone called leftist should agree to. Left managed to squander support of big part of Poles thanks to it's economic policy and which is kinda Poland original sin sucking up to clergy; right used deprivations to steal support from the left, voters in whose interst would be voting for (sensible) left choose right. Battle for language was lost too - idiocies like unborn life weren't in common usage in Poland before 1990. In conclusion right was not iddle in Poland, it simply didn't have power which it have now.

More could be found in David Ost Defeat of Solidarity. Anger and Politics in Postcommunist Europe.

(24-01-2016 08:10 AM)Naridar Wrote:  What happened now in Poland is analogous to the hungarian elections in 2010. The left, after a disastrous and hugely unpopular 4-year cycle, lost to the conservative right in an unprecedented windfall, while the majority of the press remains left-leaning and thus dissatisfied with the government's decisions stemming from conservative catholic ideology - back when the left was in charge, the right-wing newspapers complained about ideological laws too, but their numbers, international connections, and thus voice, was much less audible.

Left in Poland left the scene long ago in 2006 to be exact. But it was more like last spasms of dying body, left died earlier just it's agony took quite the time. From 2006 onwards there is no real left as choice is between so-called liberals from Civic Union and populists and nationalists from Law and Justice. Both parties are right wing, both suck up to clergy, L&J is just more honest and obvious in it's clericalism.

Sadly there is no hope for left in Poland as thanks to media and propaganda of both church and right wingers left is equaled with Poland former regime and "alliance" with Moscow. There is no room for solidarity or sharing of wealth in Poland.

(24-01-2016 08:10 AM)Naridar Wrote:  What's going on now is a sort of "revenge" for the former governments' (from a conservative viewpoint) nonsensical and oppressive laws - eventually things will hopefully settle down and the situation will normalize. Unlike Hungary, Poland, as far as I know, isn't susceptible towards oligarchic tendencies, so polish democracy isn't in danger.

Polish democracy isn't in danger cause no such thing exist. Half of the population does not vote and judging by gov it may be a wise choice, there are blasphemy laws, church is above the law and money and land are handed to it easily as Property Comittee has shown (there were no cancellation of it's rullings). Also Poland has tendencies for oligarchy as history of I RP shows - magnates were oligarchs on modern russian scale. More troubling is Poland tendency to anarchy and not caring about central gov, both of which have historical roots**.

In short Poland is fucked. Gov displeasing UE is doing what it can to fuck Poles over as UE is big source of funds for Poland, funds which sadly aren't used how they should be or some times aren't used at all. And there will come time when said funds end.

There is also no hope in youth as youth preffer Janusz Korwin-Mikke, anti-semite clown or L&J nationalist idiocy. True, young Poles don't care for church but their views do not much differ from those of clergy, except that clergy is too pragmatic for nonsense about being Antemurale Christianitatis. Poland in a few years will be a open-air museum to which people from all Europe will come to see last Neanderthals.

*Data taken from R. Boguszewski, Wiara i religijność Polaków dwadzieścia lat po rozpoczęciu przemian ustrojowych, Warszawa 2009.
**More about oligarchical and anarchistic tendencies of Poland in Jan Sowa The phantom body of the king. Peripheral struggles with modern form.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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24-01-2016, 10:10 AM
RE: Poland and National Plan of Procreation.
I see, it seems easier to be optimistic about a country from the outside. The far right is gaining ground here in Hungary too, also amongst the youth, but I hope that at least the Russia-idolization will stop once Putin is gone and the EU adapts a more firm and realistic policy.
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24-01-2016, 10:16 AM
RE: Poland and National Plan of Procreation.
(24-01-2016 10:10 AM)Naridar Wrote:  I see, it seems easier to be optimistic about a country from the outside.

Or it's harder to be realistic from inside. But words optimism and Poland doesn't mesh well.

(24-01-2016 10:10 AM)Naridar Wrote:  The far right is gaining ground here in Hungary too, also amongst the youth, but I hope that at least the Russia-idolization will stop once Putin is gone and the EU adapts a more firm and realistic policy.

Right generally seems to be on the rise.

As for Putin and EU I have no opinion on the subject.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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