Police Shootings
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02-10-2017, 10:09 AM
RE: Police Shootings
By the way, you realise I'm commenting from a whole other country and one ocean away? I'm interested in this topic, that's all. But if I ever do travel to the US I sure as fuck will think twice about calling the cops if I feel that I need to. On the other hand, the chances of encountering a dickhead in uniform are probably pretty slim. Especially given that I'm a white male. So ja, "fear and hatred" Rolleyes You sure are melodramatic. Even here, with a pretty goddamn corrupt police force - which corruption I have experienced several times first hand - I'd still call them if needed. But I'm not gonna fellate them over the internet either.

*Any* large organisation of organised, armed law enforcement is gonna suffer from abuses. The important thing is to minimise that. And the way to achieve that is not to defend them blindly from criticism, it's to ensure that violations of the law and codes of conduct are dealt with promptly and transparently. How is this even disputable?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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02-10-2017, 10:48 AM
RE: Police Shootings
(01-10-2017 03:28 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Those figures ain't even close to correct.

112 guns per person in the USA?

That would be 3.6 BILLION guns.....

Well spotted. I misstated the critical figure of 112 guns per 100 people in the US. My bad. Facepalm

[Image: number_of_guns1.png&w=480]
Number of Civilian Firearms in
the US Versus Total US Population

Although at twice the rate of the next country, Serbia with 58 guns per 100 people, it doesn't really alter the position of Americans as far too being gun-happy.

No

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02-10-2017, 10:52 AM (This post was last modified: 02-10-2017 11:39 AM by adey67.)
RE: Police Shootings
(02-10-2017 10:09 AM)morondog Wrote:  By the way, you realise I'm commenting from a whole other country and one ocean away? I'm interested in this topic, that's all. But if I ever do travel to the US I sure as fuck will think twice about calling the cops if I feel that I need to. On the other hand, the chances of encountering a dickhead in uniform are probably pretty slim. Especially given that I'm a white male. So ja, "fear and hatred" Rolleyes You sure are melodramatic. Even here, with a pretty goddamn corrupt police force - which corruption I have experienced several times first hand - I'd still call them if needed. But I'm not gonna fellate them over the internet either.

*Any* large organisation of organised, armed law enforcement is gonna suffer from abuses. The important thing is to minimise that. And the way to achieve that is not to defend them blindly from criticism, it's to ensure that violations of the law and codes of conduct are dealt with promptly and transparently. How is this even disputable?

Oh dude you've painted one hell of a mental picture in my mind with this post. Yes Tongue
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02-10-2017, 11:19 AM
RE: Police Shootings
(02-10-2017 09:40 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(02-10-2017 09:12 AM)morondog Wrote:  ... No. But you have newspaper reports, you have video evidence should you choose to look at it, there are likewise statistics, expert opinion etc. All of which have been quoted, all of which you've elected to ignore in favour of foaming at the mouth about how we're being so down on cops...

And the only conclusion I can come up with is your fear and hatred of the law enforcement community must be the result of you being on the side of criminals... So I guess we're even.

This is possibly one of the silliest comments I've seen posted in this thread! And your misguided "conclusion" is, of course, totally erroneous.

I note that you repeatedly and rabidly attack any opinion that suggests LEOs even may have acted inappropriately by killing a suspect, but you also refuse to accept any accredited statistics proving just that. Where are your figures supporting your claim that LEOs never shoot unlawfully in order to kill suspects?

An April 2015 report by criminologist Philip Stinson PhD, a researcher at Bowling Green State University in Ohio (and former police officer) reports 41 police officers were charged with murder or manslaughter between 2005 and 2011 in the US. Or one every couple of months. Can you truly justify that?

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02-10-2017, 02:37 PM
RE: Police Shootings
(02-10-2017 11:19 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(02-10-2017 09:40 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  And the only conclusion I can come up with is your fear and hatred of the law enforcement community must be the result of you being on the side of criminals... So I guess we're even.

This is possibly one of the silliest comments I've seen posted in this thread! And your misguided "conclusion" is, of course, totally erroneous.

I note that you repeatedly and rabidly attack any opinion that suggests LEOs even may have acted inappropriately by killing a suspect, but you also refuse to accept any accredited statistics proving just that. Where are your figures supporting your claim that LEOs never shoot unlawfully in order to kill suspects?

An April 2015 report by criminologist Philip Stinson PhD, a researcher at Bowling Green State University in Ohio (and former police officer) reports 41 police officers were charged with murder or manslaughter between 2005 and 2011 in the US. Or one every couple of months. Can you truly justify that?

Charged - not convicted...

More guilty til proven innocent..

.......................................

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02-10-2017, 02:41 PM
RE: Police Shootings
(02-10-2017 10:48 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(01-10-2017 03:28 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Those figures ain't even close to correct.

112 guns per person in the USA?

That would be 3.6 BILLION guns.....

Well spotted. I misstated the critical figure of 112 guns per 100 people in the US. My bad. Facepalm

[Image: number_of_guns1.png&w=480]
Number of Civilian Firearms in
the US Versus Total US Population

Although at twice the rate of the next country, Serbia with 58 guns per 100 people, it doesn't really alter the position of Americans as far too being gun-happy.

No

What's REALLY crazy, is that a very small percent of the population owns most of the guns.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/.../90858752/

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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02-10-2017, 08:41 PM
RE: Police Shootings
(30-09-2017 06:50 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(29-09-2017 07:40 PM)Dr H Wrote:  So the answer to your question, proceeding from the standard you proposed, is that there are about 840 unjustified fatal shootings by police in the US, each year.

On a global scale, perhaps not the biggest problem we have, but still, 840 needless deaths each year is a problem which needs to be seriously addressed.

FBI statistics say that on average there are about 1000 fatal police shootings a year.

Your figuring says that means over 80 percent are UNJUSTIFIED.

FBI statistics also say that the MAJORITY of the police shootings are incidents where the police were being fired upon by the " victim".
I'd be very interested to see where the FBI has made that statement about the "MAJORITY" of police shootings.
They haven't yet completed their database and, to the best of my knowledge, have yet to venture a statement as to how many such shootings there are, much less an opinion about the circumstances surrounding a "majority" of a number they don't yet have.


Quote:My guess - you're off in your numbers by more than a factor of ten.
Perhaps. But note that to arrive at that number I applied the standard that you proposed, viz., that we judge police by the same standards as we would judge ordinary citizens. If we do this, it implies that the stats for police would be a subset of, and proportional to those of the general population.

And the fact is that in the general population, according to FBI stats, most firearm deaths are the result of homicides.

Either we treat police like a subset of the general populace, in which case we would expect similar outcomes; or we decide that police need to be judged by different criteria from ordinary citizens. Can't really have it both ways.

Quote:I'd guess the true number is less than 20 a year.
Your guess is duly noted.

Quote:If it were 800 a year, the way the media loves to play the incidents non- stop - they'd have started a new network to play nothing but cops shooting civilians....
Despite the ubiquitous cell phone camera, I expect that not every police shooting is conveniently captured on video.
After all, most civilian homicides aren't.

And I would say that the fact that the FBI seems to think there is need to establish an on-going "police shootings database" suggests that the FBI, at least, suspects that the problem is more significant that a mere handful of incidents each year.

It will be interesting to see what the FBI's numbers look like when they finally get their system up and running. They have many decades of experience in tracking these sorts of things.

--
Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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02-10-2017, 09:05 PM
RE: Police Shootings
(01-10-2017 12:01 PM)SYZ Wrote:  The answer is staring Americans in the face, but they refuse to accept it... or act upon it accordingly.

The US has the highest rate of gun ownership in the world at 112 per head.
That's a misreading, I think, of the 2012 Congressional Service Report on Gun Control Legislation. the number it found was 112.6 guns per 100 population, or a little over 1.1 guns per person. That's still more guns than people. And since not everybody in the US owns a gun, the per capita number for gun owners will be higher, but still not, I think, anywhere near 112 per.

Quote:The next highest rate is Serbia with 58 guns per head. Australia has 24 per head, the UK has 7 per head, and Japan has less than 1 per head.
Likewise, these are numbers per 100 population, not per head.

Quote:Philip Alpers and Marcus Wilson. 2013. Global Impact of Gun Violence: Firearms, public health and safety. Sydney School of Public Health, The University of Sydney NSW.
Even this source gives the number of privately owned guns in the US at between 270-310 million for 2012; at that time the population was around 314 million, so gun ownership was about 1:1.

That's still a fuck of a lot of guns, but nowhere near the mammoth arsenal 112/per would be.
Hell, I'd have to buy a second house to store that many guns. Tongue

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"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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02-10-2017, 09:15 PM
RE: Police Shootings
(02-10-2017 02:37 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Charged - not convicted...

More guilty til proven innocent..

"Innocent until proven guilty" is a beautiful sentiment from the American justice system. Would be more beautiful still, were it always practiced.

Like, for example, with 780 detainees at Guantanamo Bay, only four of whom were ever formally tried, much less charged, and yet were imprisoned, some of them for up to 15 years.

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"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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02-10-2017, 09:20 PM
RE: Police Shootings
(02-10-2017 09:15 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(02-10-2017 02:37 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Charged - not convicted...

More guilty til proven innocent..

"Innocent until proven guilty" is a beautiful sentiment from the American justice system. Would be more beautiful still, were it always practiced.

Like, for example, with 780 detainees at Guantanamo Bay, only four of whom were ever formally tried, much less charged, and yet were imprisoned, some of them for up to 15 years.

Innocent until proven guilty for the Cop that shoots the unarmed civilian but the black kid that was holding a toy gun in a right to carry state "had it coming" when the officer sped up to him in a car and fatally shot him before the car came to a stop. At least according to OLB, one of the reasons I don't bother conversing with him anymore. Waste of my time.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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