Police officer cleared in Minneapolis shooting.
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21-06-2017, 08:39 AM
RE: Police officer cleared in Minneapolis shooting.
(21-06-2017 06:50 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(20-06-2017 06:06 PM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  You're really terrible at this. This is the second time you've gone straight to the strawman that it's "fuck all police".

I'm talking about THIS GODDAMN SCENARIO. Is that so hard for you to understand? Or is it your job to immediately be an apologist for all things police?

Jesus fucking christ.

In this country we have this thing, called " innocent till proven guilty".

We had a trial, and the cop was acquitted.

But you " know" better than the jury despite their ability to review the evidence, while you just review your bias.


How is that appologist??????


Your "logic" is on par with Ken Hamm's.

So juries are infallible? Because they never get rulings wrong? Because you just throw out "bias" anytime anything appears to be on the opposite side of you? How are you an apologist....read your first goddamn post.

And a huge LOL at YOU comparing me to Ken Hamm after the dispaly of simplistic thinking you just dispalyed.
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21-06-2017, 08:41 AM
RE: Police officer cleared in Minneapolis shooting.
(21-06-2017 07:14 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(21-06-2017 07:00 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  The "innocent until proven guilty" scenario also should apply when an officer pulls over a motorist.

The thing is that the acquittal fits a pattern, and this pattern shows evidence of structural racism.

Like you, I wasn't on the jury and wasn't privy to the details of the case.

But the simple fact is that if you're a black male, you are more likely to be shot and killed by police. That's simply a fact. Source: Police are more likely to kill black men, study finds

By any measure you wish to use, it's clear that something is fundamentally wrong in the way the police and courts respond to black males.

The "we talking about THIS case" to talking about generalities seems to change....


I am talking about this case.

From what I heard, including the just released audio of the shooting -

It seems the officer did indeed react ( incorrectly) to a percieved threat. Any person in that same situation could react the same way. There does not seem to be any malice in the officers response. The officer thought the guy was going for his gun, and the officer drew and fired until the guy stopped. As trained - shoot till the threat quits being a threat.

The jury seems to have felt that way too.

Other bad encounters that other officers have had should have nothing to do with this case.

And yet YOU are the one that brought up "fuck the police", lumping this into all the other accounts.
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21-06-2017, 08:43 AM
RE: Police officer cleared in Minneapolis shooting.
(21-06-2017 08:21 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(21-06-2017 07:14 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Any person in that same situation could react the same way.

A totally FALSE assumption, INCLUDING the partner at the scene who said he perceived no threat.

Oh hush now, you're just showing your bias.

/sarcasm.
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21-06-2017, 09:23 AM
RE: Police officer cleared in Minneapolis shooting.
(21-06-2017 08:21 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(21-06-2017 07:14 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Any person in that same situation could react the same way.

A totally FALSE assumption, INCLUDING the partner at the scene who said he perceived no threat.
So you know exactly how people should and would react, huh???

Ain't you fucking special.


Any person COULD react the same.

It's not to say they would or wouldn't.

I don't know. I don't know how I would react. I don't know how you would react.

I don't know how ANY random asshole would react.

I wasn't in the situation.


Apparently I'm not as omnipotent as you.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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21-06-2017, 09:28 AM
RE: Police officer cleared in Minneapolis shooting.
(21-06-2017 09:23 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(21-06-2017 08:21 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  A totally FALSE assumption, INCLUDING the partner at the scene who said he perceived no threat.
So you know exactly how people should and would react, huh???

Ain't you fucking special.


Any person COULD react the same.

It's not to say they would or wouldn't.

I don't know. I don't know how I would react. I don't know how you would react.

I don't know how ANY random asshole would react.

I wasn't in the situation.


Apparently I'm not as omnipotent as you.

That's fucking HYSTERICAL.
YOU are the omnipotent one here, Lord OLB.
Or are you a little forgetful from those bike fumes ?
YOU :
Quote:Any person in that same situation could react the same way.

And then he whines about *me* being omnipotent ? LOL Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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21-06-2017, 10:16 AM
RE: Police officer cleared in Minneapolis shooting.
(21-06-2017 07:42 AM)kim Wrote:  They've released the dash cam video from the cop car. It is incredibly disturbing.

To me, the officer did not even listen to the motorist. It seems the officer's fear level shot up as soon as the guy said, "I have to tell you, I have a firearm." Then, adrenalin took over and all control was lost. The officer was terrified and holding a weapon - that's not a good combination.

I find it hard to believe this was viewed in court and the officer did not even get manslaughter.

Girlfriend got dude killed. Dude was stone still after telling the cop he had a firearm but girlfriend starting leaning over. Think cop was telling the girlfriend not to pull it out. Even after he shot the guy he said "Don't pull it out." and the girlfriend responded "I wasn't." Think dude knew the rules and girlfriend didn't. Cop heard "I have a firearm", said "Don't reach for it then. Don't pull it out.", saw movement just a split-second later from the woman starting to lean over and went flight or fight really really fast. Could've thought the woman was pulling the gun out from beside the seat or in the console, I guess. Apparently the jury saw this tape so they must've seen something like that. One thing's for sure, Geronimo should never have been allowed to be a cop.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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21-06-2017, 10:18 AM
RE: Police officer cleared in Minneapolis shooting.
(21-06-2017 07:42 AM)kim Wrote:  They've released the dash cam video from the cop car. It is incredibly disturbing.

To me, the officer did not even listen to the motorist. It seems the officer's fear level shot up as soon as the guy said, "I have to tell you, I have a firearm." Then, adrenalin took over and all control was lost. The officer was terrified and holding a weapon - that's not a good combination.

I find it hard to believe this was viewed in court and the officer did not even get manslaughter.

That is terrifying. I almost puked my breakfast. It seems that interacting with police can be more dangerous than I had assumed. This could have been anybody. Granted, some are wired to only ever see it from the cop's perspective.

Looking at the footage, there is very little time from the time Philando tells the cop he has a firearm to when he is shot. First of all, Philando sounds generally nonthreatening - I think that is important, even if some people just fear tarantulas whether they are threatening or not. He tells the cop about the gun, and at the same time probably reaches for the documentation. You cannot tell from the cop's perspective if he is reaching for a gun.

The crucial moment appears to be when the cop tells him don't pull it out. At that moment, his hand is probably near or in his pocket out of sight of the cop. What are his options for survival(at that point that is what is at stake for him)?

1) He can pull his hand back, which can be interpreted by the cop as a threat, because he doesn't know at that point if he has retrieved the gun. Cops are trained to shoot first and ask questions later, because they have to get back home alive.

2) He can try to explain to the cop what's going on without moving his hand back into view. It doesn't seem very practical at that point, given that the cop is already out of control. The cop would also likely interpret that as non-compliance.

Philando's options for survival appear to have dwindled precipitously, from the moment he mentions he has a gun. His life depends on a cop who is willing to take on some risk as part of his job. The possibility that guys with guns might still nonchalantly reach into their pockets to retrieve documents should inform that risk.

How about the cop's options?

1) Err on the side of caution, assuming some of the risk he signed up and is getting paid for, have his gun at the ready without firing it, and allow enough time for either of Philando's legitimate options to materialize.

c2) Shoot the guy right away, put everyone else's life, including a four year old's, in danger, and guarantee himself a trip back home to a loving and doting family.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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21-06-2017, 10:35 AM
RE: Police officer cleared in Minneapolis shooting.
Cop shoots civilian cop gets off who didn't see that one coming. Big Grin
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21-06-2017, 11:31 AM
RE: Police officer cleared in Minneapolis shooting.
(21-06-2017 10:18 AM)tomilay Wrote:  
(21-06-2017 07:42 AM)kim Wrote:  They've released the dash cam video from the cop car. It is incredibly disturbing.

To me, the officer did not even listen to the motorist. It seems the officer's fear level shot up as soon as the guy said, "I have to tell you, I have a firearm." Then, adrenalin took over and all control was lost. The officer was terrified and holding a weapon - that's not a good combination.

I find it hard to believe this was viewed in court and the officer did not even get manslaughter.

That is terrifying. I almost puked my breakfast. It seems that interacting with police can be more dangerous than I had assumed. This could have been anybody. Granted, some are wired to only ever see it from the cop's perspective.

Looking at the footage, there is very little time from the time Philando tells the cop he has a firearm to when he is shot. First of all, Philando sounds generally nonthreatening - I think that is important, even if some people just fear tarantulas whether they are threatening or not. He tells the cop about the gun, and at the same time probably reaches for the documentation. You cannot tell from the cop's perspective if he is reaching for a gun.

The crucial moment appears to be when the cop tells him don't pull it out. At that moment, his hand is probably near or in his pocket out of sight of the cop. What are his options for survival(at that point that is what is at stake for him)?

1) He can pull his hand back, which can be interpreted by the cop as a threat, because he doesn't know at that point if he has retrieved the gun. Cops are trained to shoot first and ask questions later, because they have to get back home alive.

2) He can try to explain to the cop what's going on without moving his hand back into view. It doesn't seem very practical at that point, given that the cop is already out of control. The cop would also likely interpret that as non-compliance.

Philando's options for survival appear to have dwindled precipitously, from the moment he mentions he has a gun. His life depends on a cop who is willing to take on some risk as part of his job. The possibility that guys with guns might still nonchalantly reach into their pockets to retrieve documents should inform that risk.

How about the cop's options?

1) Err on the side of caution, assuming some of the risk he signed up and is getting paid for, have his gun at the ready without firing it, and allow enough time for either of Philando's legitimate options to materialize.

c2) Shoot the guy right away, put everyone else's life, including a four year old's, in danger, and guarantee himself a trip back home to a loving and doting family.

If he pulled over a white guy, same level of fear do you think? I rate the prevailing narrative of black guys with guns = extreme danger poisoned his thinking from the get go. Unbelievable that he does get away with it too. Even manslaughter charges couldn't stick? Was I a black guy in America, cop would be the last person I'd turn to for help. I'd have to be shit outta options. High profile cases like these utterly erode any trust in the police at all. The message is that cops can do what they like and never face a consequence. This is not an isolated incident.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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21-06-2017, 12:30 PM
RE: Police officer cleared in Minneapolis shooting.
(21-06-2017 11:31 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(21-06-2017 10:18 AM)tomilay Wrote:  That is terrifying. I almost puked my breakfast. It seems that interacting with police can be more dangerous than I had assumed. This could have been anybody. Granted, some are wired to only ever see it from the cop's perspective.

Looking at the footage, there is very little time from the time Philando tells the cop he has a firearm to when he is shot. First of all, Philando sounds generally nonthreatening - I think that is important, even if some people just fear tarantulas whether they are threatening or not. He tells the cop about the gun, and at the same time probably reaches for the documentation. You cannot tell from the cop's perspective if he is reaching for a gun.

The crucial moment appears to be when the cop tells him don't pull it out. At that moment, his hand is probably near or in his pocket out of sight of the cop. What are his options for survival(at that point that is what is at stake for him)?

1) He can pull his hand back, which can be interpreted by the cop as a threat, because he doesn't know at that point if he has retrieved the gun. Cops are trained to shoot first and ask questions later, because they have to get back home alive.

2) He can try to explain to the cop what's going on without moving his hand back into view. It doesn't seem very practical at that point, given that the cop is already out of control. The cop would also likely interpret that as non-compliance.

Philando's options for survival appear to have dwindled precipitously, from the moment he mentions he has a gun. His life depends on a cop who is willing to take on some risk as part of his job. The possibility that guys with guns might still nonchalantly reach into their pockets to retrieve documents should inform that risk.

How about the cop's options?

1) Err on the side of caution, assuming some of the risk he signed up and is getting paid for, have his gun at the ready without firing it, and allow enough time for either of Philando's legitimate options to materialize.

c2) Shoot the guy right away, put everyone else's life, including a four year old's, in danger, and guarantee himself a trip back home to a loving and doting family.

If he pulled over a white guy, same level of fear do you think? I rate the prevailing narrative of black guys with guns = extreme danger poisoned his thinking from the get go. Unbelievable that he does get away with it too. Even manslaughter charges couldn't stick? Was I a black guy in America, cop would be the last person I'd turn to for help. I'd have to be shit outta options. High profile cases like these utterly erode any trust in the police at all. The message is that cops can do what they like and never face a consequence. This is not an isolated incident.

A white middle aged guy with girlfriend and four year old white girl in the back all else being the same? I don't know for sure. But you dont' see a lot of white Philando Castiles and Charles Kinseys. I don't know what the data definitively says - even though I know I am more at risk of ending up on the business end of a cop's weapon as a rule. It's a risk I am okay navigating around. Youtube has made me a bit more concerned, but not in a crippling way.

What really bothers me and makes it possible for things like this tragedy to happen, is the underlying idea that a cop should be able to shoot away at anything that moves, including children unfortunate enough to find themselves in range, until his fear subsides. That fear can be seen as justifiable or not by a jury depending on how dangerous the victim is perceived to be. Blacks are generally perceived to be more dangerous.

You are right that being black, you want to minimize your engagement with the police under any but the most dire circumstances. Like when you are likely going to die either way.

This could partly explain why blacks are more likely to end up victims when they call the police - because the situation is usually already way out of control. When the cops show up, they encounter a "fearful" situation. But it's also because police are more likely to treat everybody on the scene as very dangerous.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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