Political Insight: Set Me Straight
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10-07-2013, 08:57 AM (This post was last modified: 10-07-2013 09:06 AM by ridethespiral.)
RE: Political Insight: Set Me Straight
Yeah I'm a 'Solid Liberal' on this scale, though I would have liked some middle ground/weighting options (for example I don't think Blacks in America get a fair shake but I also don't think we need affirmative action and prefere to use economic reform as a solution) and I think some answer exclude others... You really can't be for increased spending on military + welfare and still be for balancing the budget, etc.

My advice for the OP is don't get caught up in the ideolog's game, tackle each issue one at a time. Usually there is something valid about both arguments, then try to see the bigger issues and how they all inter-relate. Personally I tend to agree with Mr. Bill Mahr on all but gun control (I think he goes a little harder left here than I) and he gives it pretty straight, he is critical of the left when it is warranted and really does let both sides have a voice...and to be perfectly honest even if the democratic party preaches moderate socialism when it comes to actually writing the laws and trying to get bills through the tea pot that is is the house, their solutions look more like moderate conservatism than anything else. Even Clinton was a moderate conservative by EU standards.

Lastly follow the money, who is funding the tea party and why? Just because it's sold as god/country/individual rights doesn't mean that is what it is really about (personally I think it's about corporate welfare, dangerous deregulation, divide and conquer, crony capitalism, economic imperialism, etc.) Why is it that Obama campaigned on the environment and then back slide on natural gas and agra-business?

Ps. Historically 'Republican' and 'Democrat' meant very different stances than they do today. In Roosevelt's day Republicans where pro-environment for example.

Pps. Nobody is coming for your steak agra business is huge money and I don't think their subsidies are going away no matter who you vote for. Steak along with most food will get pricier and pricier though as global population/demand grows, climate change parches middle america, the factory farm v. evolution war comes to a head...etc.

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12-07-2013, 02:07 PM
RE: Political Insight: Set Me Straight
(10-07-2013 07:09 AM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  here's a quickie quiz.
political quiz.

It identified me as a Post Modern. (middle of the road on political spectrum).

(10-07-2013 07:33 AM)KidCharlemagne1962 Wrote:  I'm evidently a Post Modern.

Me too. But but but ...




As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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12-07-2013, 03:29 PM
RE: Political Insight: Set Me Straight
Post-modern by their scoring.

I try to avoid the labels - I'm independent and I think the left and the right are both fucked. Ideologues of any stripe make me crazy.

Mis, your characterizations of both sides are great. Thumbsup

Can I hang targets from your nipple rings and do some shooting? Consider

Yesterday, my brother and I did some shooting in my back yard and then I grilled a steak.Drooling

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-07-2013, 04:12 AM
RE: Political Insight: Set Me Straight
(10-07-2013 08:07 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  No..
The best America can muster right now is me.
The Democrats are the best America will muster right now.

Hate to shatter your dreams, but you aren't an American.

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13-07-2013, 06:46 AM
RE: Political Insight: Set Me Straight
(definitions below apply specifically to the current United States)

Here's your 2-minute summary ...

A good number (probably a majority) of atheists in the US are what is currently known as "liberal." They are supportive of big government programs to "help the poor" and strongly regulate businesses and corporations, and in some cases value "personal" freedom, e.g. allowing marijuana use. As a general rule they are anti-war and support regulations protecting the environment. Many support a nationalized health care system. A fair number are anti-gun. These folks tend to support the Democratic Party.

There are some atheists that are "conservative." Conservatives normally are associated strongly with Protestant and Evangelical groups (although obviously not the atheists who lean conservative). Conservatives tend to support the war on terror, war on drugs, and many support much less business regulation than the liberals - in some cases advocating for active support of businesses and corporations by the government. Many are anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage. These folks tend to support the Republican Party.

The Democratic and Republican Parties sometimes like to talk about a "big tent" - that generally refers to them having supporters who agree with many but not all of the party's views. You will see groups that differ strongly with the rest of the party, e.g. the "Log Cabin Republicans" (a group of gay Republicans).

A fair number of conservatives and liberals keep quiet when "their guy" does something they don't like (e.g. President Bush pushing through expanded government-funded medicine, President Obama continuing overseas wars). This tends to be how politics works, IMO - when "your guy" is in office you cut them more slack, even if they do things you don't like.

Both liberals and conservatives tend to favor a strong government, although they want it to do different things.

Some atheists are of the hardcore socialist / communist variety. Generally the more communist countries of the 20th century have been officially or unofficially atheist.

Other atheists are libertarian or in some cases anarcho-capitalist (favoring anarchy but a free market, to distinguish themselves from those who favor anarchy and socialism). They favor much less government (or no government), generally believing it does far more harm than good.

The two major political parties are by far the most dominant, having written the laws that control elections to benefit themselves and exclude other political parties and independents whenever possible. The two strongest "third parties" are the Libertarian Party and the Green Party. The Libertarian Party supporters are libertarian (no surprise); the Green Party supporters tend to be socialist with a heavy focus on regulations to protect the environment (hence the "green" in the name).

Hope this helps.
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15-07-2013, 12:23 AM (This post was last modified: 15-07-2013 12:29 AM by Dark Light.)
RE: Political Insight: Set Me Straight
(10-07-2013 04:30 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  THE FOLLOWING PERTAINS EXCLUSIVELY TO AMERICAN AUDIENCES. I LIVE IN AMERICA AND AS A DUMBASSED AMERICAN, I DON'T HAVE TIME FOR WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE REST OF THE WORLD. ALL THINGS IN DUE TIME.



I'll be honest: I know absolutely fuck-all about politics. When two white-haired guys in business suits sit down at a table on TV and start talking to one another about G.O.Ps and "fiscal cliffs" and "teaparty rallies" and that god-awful "Obamacare", I completely zone out. They might as well be speaking about the Greek language, in the Greek language, and I'm just sitting there like "wtf".

Up until recently, I was ok with this. Politics annoy me. Thus far, my personal motto has been - and will certainly continue to be - "Man is not fit to lead man, for both men are inherently fallible". True words. But while politics may be a laughable attempt on the part of Man to lead itself succsessfully, I find myself faced more and more with the realities of political discourse. I have those in my life who occupy all ends of the spectrum, and more often than not, a political discussion will soon arise. The problem with this is that I have no idea what anyone is talking about. Again, people start bringing up all these politically-savy words and I'm like Blink I love rich debate about controversial topics, but when it comes to politics, I have absolutely no idea what people are talking about, and I'd like to. I'd like to be able to chime in about politics the way I chime in about religion. I know a lot about religion. Right down to how certain religious people think. At the risk of sounding conceited, I can fuckin' dominate the hell out of a religious conversation. But this is not the case with politics. Until this point, I've intentionally distanced myself from this topic because I just think it's all bullshit, and even now I feel a measure of reserve in even asking these questions. But they're things I'd like to know.

1) What the fuck is a "liberal"? When I think "liberal", I immediately hear the voice of Rush Limbaugh spouting "liberal media!" or "liberal agenda!" in between big, sloppy bites of his tenderloin steak. I think a pale, wormy guy with glasses driving his Prius with "Obama/Biden 2012" and "Coexist" bumper stickers all over it. If I ask my dad, I will (literally) hear that "Liberalism is socialism. It is worship of the government. They want to eliminate good, Christian beliefs in this country so that the government is the only religion left, and they want to take our guns so we can't revolt against it. Then we become slaves to them. The nigs will get to have their obamaphones and abortions paid for by OUR tax dollars, and they want to rule us as communists. It truly is the most evil mindset a person can have."

But, surely, this man can't be right. After all, I've personally witnessed his transformation from an easy-going father to a die-hard follower of all things right-wing in just the past year and a half. He knew absolutely nothing about politics before (save for its history, but certainly not its function), and he now gets the ENTIRETY of his political information from Mr. "Global warming is a myth! *Yummy steak nom nom nom*" and "Tide goes in, tide goes out; you can't explain that". So while I may not know a thing about so-called "Liberalism", I'm quite sure it's not as he describes. By his logic, Obama is a cloaked villain with an evil mustache who does bad things for no other reason than because "Muahahaha". Surely that can't be reality, can it?

2) What the fuck is a "conservative"? Perhaps this is because I'm more in tune with religion than I am politics, but when I think "conservative", I immediately think "Gawd, country and guns". I think a fat, (always) white guy with a bushy beard on his chin and a double-barreled shotgun over his shoulder and a bible in his hand. I think a guy who hates queers and loves guns and almighty Gawd. A guy who doesn't want a "stinkin' nigger" in the whitehouse not because of his policies, but simply because he's a nigger. A guy who reads his bible every day and beats his kids with it when they misbehave. A guy who, as opposed to a liberal (from the word "liberation", meaning "freedom"), wants things to stay on lockdown, exactly as they are, because "that's how the got-damn founding fathers wanted it, dammit".

But, surely, I can't be entirely correct in this. I know there exist perfectly reasonable, right-wing atheists who want social freedom just as much as any other rational person. (I think they'd call that "libertarian", but I guess I'll learn that too) Surely not every conservative individual loves guns and Gawd and hates queers and niggers in the whitehouse. So...what the fuck is a conservative?

Amidst all of this bullshit, where do I stand? I love my guns. I'll admit it. Many people despise that I own what they would call a "military-style assault rifle", but I love my guns. You will have to pry them from my cold, dead fingers, yes, but not because they're tradition. Rather, it's because I wouldn't go down without a fight in ANY situation, and if I happen to have a gun on me at the time, you're gonna have to kill me before I give myself over to you. This would be the case in any situation with ANY weapon; it's just that guns happen to be the most effective against an attacker and they're readily available to me. Plus, I love the way they look (is it wrong that a weapon of malice has made me sexually aroused?) and I like that they go "BOOM". There's a reason, after all, that every young, dumb guy plays first-person-shooter videogames...and it's not so they can get a high score.

With that said, I show nothing but support for the "queers" and believe fully that they have every right to be together and get married and rail each other in the ass - or whatever it is those fine folks do. Hell, tape it and send it to Fox News; I'd love to see them squirm when they see such an abomination to their Lord. It'll be good times.

However, I also like a big, juicy steak, and no tree-huggin' liberal is gonna make me stop eating it. I have teeth for eating steak. I have the means to eat steak. I LOVE eating steak. I'm gonna eat a fuckin' steak. Get over it.

Then again, I don't believe God gave me dominion over the creatures of the Earth so that I could eat them. God doesn't exist. He never did. Not even when I believed in him. So the only time you will ever see me gripping a bible is when I'm using it to show a deluded, empty-headed believer why they're fucking WRONG about so and so and such and such. (Your god clearly states that the dead are conscious of nothing. This eliminates your prospect of Heaven and Hell. Unless you want to call your god a liar, I suggest you get the fuck over it)

When it comes to how I live my life, I'm apparently a barrel of political contradictions. But the label is not what concerns me the most. What concerns me is being able to make a valid and sound argument for or against a certain political notion or party if and when the opportunity arises. I want to know how to defend myself against the compulsive liars which occupy the left (such is the case if you ask a conservative), and I'd like equally to defend myself against the compulsive liars which occupy the right (such is the case if you ask a liberal).

So, tell me what it's all about, Alfie. Tell me who's doing what in the political sphere and why. Tell me what defines these parties (and the others I've failed to mention, if at all possible) and tell me what the ramifications of their decisions in this world are, and how it pertains to the overall political world. I'm tired of being the only one in the room who knows fuck-all about what's actually going on in this country.



Also, this is completely unrelated, but I got my nipples pierced. Chas, you're welcome to play with them any time you want. Just throwin' that out there. *Chugs another beer*


Hello Little Missy Big Grin,

Based on your personal philosophy I would HIGHLY recommend you read into the personal philosophies of well known Anarchists, Classical Liberals (as opposed the the modern usage of liberal in America), and Libertarians. The most modern 'hero' that are along these lines in America is Ron Paul, youtube some of his speeches. Judge Andrew Napolitano is aslo a big name, and to some extent Ron Paul's son, Rand Paul is a relatively big name as well (though he is not as liberal (classical usage of the word as his daddy.) You might also consider the Russian immigrant Ayn Rand, and economists such as Frederich Bastiat, Fredrich Hayack, Milton Freidman (youtube videos available) and Lysander Spooner.

Now, to address what a conservative is (in America). This is a confusing term which can mean different things to different people. I will give you MY opinion on the problematic word. Conservative is rooted in the word conserve. To conserve what? That which has been in the past. It is my opinion that this word is often misused, because I think of conserving the basic ideas of the founding fathers of America, who where part of the Enlightenment Movement that was spreading like wildfire to the American colonies. It started in Europe, but Americans took in to the next level, and eventually spread it back to France, contributing to the French Revolution. Religion, something you can relate to, was a major player in the Enlightenment Movement. Be warned I am simplifying, but I can chat via skype or something if your interested. Before it was given that royalty were given their power by God, and was even divine. Skeptics said, fuck that shit. They doubted the Christian stories, most 'enlightened' folks were deists. God exists, but he is just a watchmaker, and the universe a watch. He has other shit to do than worry about particular humans. These folks said that men are fallible, the lot of them. Government is needed is some form, but the smaller the better. Men should largely worry about and govern themselves. To me, to conserve is to keep those basic ideas, religious beliefs aside, they are personal, as the founders would have largely said (though maybe not publicly announced.) They were still split on plenty of political issues of the day, but most of them didn't want too much government oppression.

Liberal is another troublesome term. It comes from the word liberty. A literal definition (imo) is that a liberal is one that seeks to maximize personal liberty, but this word isn't used in that light in modern America either. It is often used to describe people who want to maximize liberty in certain personal matters, such as sexual preference issues, drug policies, and others, but the modern liberal wishes to restrict liberties 'for the common good'. This is issues like tax collection, wealth redistribution, civil rights issues (promotion of so-called reverse racism, or positive discrimination'), gun rights issues and so forth. Using what I call the literal definition (as opposed to the modern one I just described) I would call the founding fathers "liberals", but due to current usage it is better understood to call them classical liberals.

SO, I would call the people that would like to more closely follow our original founders both liberals and conservatives (compared to more recent incarnations of our government). Neither of these is true using modern definitions. Modern Conservatives AND modern Liberals would BOTH like to restrict your freedoms in ways that was not originally intended, and BOTH would likely by hated by our founders. They just disagree on what they would like to restrict you on. Please have a chat with me on skype for more info and discussion if you would like.

mdak06's explanation isn't bad either. Bravo.

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15-07-2013, 03:04 AM
RE: Political Insight: Set Me Straight
(15-07-2013 12:23 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Based on your personal philosophy I would HIGHLY recommend you read into the personal philosophies of well known Anarchists, Classical Liberals (as opposed the the modern usage of liberal in America), and Libertarians. The most modern 'hero' that are along these lines in America is Ron Paul, youtube some of his speeches. Judge Andrew Napolitano is aslo a big name, and to some extent Ron Paul's son, Rand Paul is a relatively big name as well (though he is not as liberal (classical usage of the word as his daddy.) You might also consider the Russian immigrant Ayn Rand, and economists such as Frederich Bastiat, Fredrich Hayack, Milton Freidman (youtube videos available) and Lysander Spooner.

I would recommend you read the suggested works above so you can laugh at the unsustainable, immoral absurdity. Anarchism and Libertarianism are both completely and utterly ridiculous. They are just as equally delusional as Marxism and Communism and rely on the notion of Darwinian Economics as a means to run a nation. Fuck that shit. Fuck that shit with a massive penis.

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15-07-2013, 04:06 AM
RE: Political Insight: Set Me Straight
(13-07-2013 04:12 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(10-07-2013 08:07 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  No..
The best America can muster right now is me.
The Democrats are the best America will muster right now.

Hate to shatter your dreams, but you aren't an American.

And I thank god every day for that.
But my point still remains.

Laws can be amended to allow foreigners to become president.
Doesn't mean it should/will happen though, but the point that that could happen remains.

















boom.

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15-07-2013, 04:39 AM
RE: Political Insight: Set Me Straight
(15-07-2013 04:06 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(13-07-2013 04:12 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Hate to shatter your dreams, but you aren't an American.

And I thank god every day for that.
But my point still remains.

Laws can be amended to allow foreigners to become president.
Doesn't mean it should/will happen though, but the point that that could happen remains.

















boom.

I can guarantee that it won't. Well, it won't while you are still alive.








And you will fuckin' die.









Boom.

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15-07-2013, 07:19 AM
RE: Political Insight: Set Me Straight
(15-07-2013 03:04 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(15-07-2013 12:23 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Based on your personal philosophy I would HIGHLY recommend you read into the personal philosophies of well known Anarchists, Classical Liberals (as opposed the the modern usage of liberal in America), and Libertarians. The most modern 'hero' that are along these lines in America is Ron Paul, youtube some of his speeches. Judge Andrew Napolitano is aslo a big name, and to some extent Ron Paul's son, Rand Paul is a relatively big name as well (though he is not as liberal (classical usage of the word as his daddy.) You might also consider the Russian immigrant Ayn Rand, and economists such as Frederich Bastiat, Fredrich Hayack, Milton Freidman (youtube videos available) and Lysander Spooner.

I would recommend you read the suggested works above so you can laugh at the unsustainable, immoral absurdity. Anarchism and Libertarianism are both completely and utterly ridiculous. They are just as equally delusional as Marxism and Communism and rely on the notion of Darwinian Economics as a means to run a nation. Fuck that shit. Fuck that shit with a massive penis.

Because pointing guns at people (using government), or simply having that threat available, and forcing them to do or not do what a particular group of people say is the "right thing" is so much better?

It's so much better for the governments to use coercion give special privileges to corporations, labor unions, favored political parties, minority groups (in the present), slaveowners (in the past), religious groups (e.g. tax exemptions), and whatever group those in power tend to favor at a given time?

It's better for the governments to throw persons in cages who have done no harm to other persons (pot smokers, gamblers, etc.), or those who happen to be the wrong race (Japanese persons in the USA in the 1940s), to suppress free speech (numerous examples around the world) and in extreme cases to slaughter their own citizens (again, numerous examples around the world)?

Fuck that.
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