Political correctness?
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03-06-2017, 05:57 AM
RE: Political correctness?
LOL! No, I don't think Peterson's high. He's made quite a name for himself - rightly or wrongly - over this issue. Agree or disagree with him, I think it's clear that he's pretty damn smart.

I do agree that it would make me uncomfortable if I were called "Ms" or "Miss" (which, strangely, has happened before, given that my real name could be either male or female). But is that worthy of a criminal charge? I personally think not, even if it were used to intentionally insult or offend me.

To sum up my consideration on the matter, I look at it kinda like this: As atheists, we are virtually 100% opposed to blasphemy laws which would criminalize offensive speech (or, for instance, drawings of Mohammed or a crucifix in a jar of urine), and that free speech should include the right to offend. I see little difference between opposition to blasphemy laws and opposition to this law.

(By the way, my mistake: the bill is now law but wasn't during the Peterson testimony.)

Two other things, for the record:

1. I'm on the board of directors with a volunteer organization that works with marginalized members of society, some of whom are small handful of trans people. This organization, of which I am immensely proud, offers medical assistance, food and supplies to those who find themselves on the street. I hear their horror stories all the time.
2. I think, when it comes down to it, you and I (and most others commenting here) are virtually on the same page: people, regardless of their gender identity (or non-identity) deserve to be treated with respect and dignity, and this includes the manner in which they're addressed. Seems that the only issue we part on is whether criminal action should follow if such a person does not feel they are being accorded due respect. I think criminal action is a step too far; it's a bit like trying to legislate good manners.

Regardless, I've learned a lot through this thread and thank everyone for their input. You guys rock!
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03-06-2017, 07:27 AM
RE: Political correctness?
And I, respectfully, think you have drunk the Kool-Aid of the opponents of this law, who have painted these laws in that way. You are not liable for "criminal action" if the person does not feel they are being accorded due respect. Both of these laws are about requiring that overt disrespect cease and desist.

That's why I called the "smart" guy disingenuous. He has to know that this is not about "you were not as respectful to me as I think I deserve", and it has never been about that. It is about telling landlords and other people who have power over the individual in business situations that they may not be openly DISrespectful to the trans community, just as they have been for years ordered not to be DISrespectful to people of other minority communities.

It is a total red herring to pretend that this is about respect in the sense that this guy is using the term.

No sane trans* person is going into a classroom expecting to be automatically respected, in the sense that he means. They only WANT to be treated the same as everyone else in there. One of the things that would afford them that equal treatment was to know that the professor, regardless of his personal feelings about trans* people, is that they call them by their gender-appropriate pronouns, just as they do for every other person in that classroom.

The law has simply advanced to recognize that trans* persons are deserving of the same guarantees we already afford to other groups. That's why I made the comparison to my grandparents' generation, whining about how ol' Joe who owns the hardware store got sued because he called one of his customers a "porch monkey".

PS - Kudos for the work you do, and for working to maintain an open mind. Smile

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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05-06-2017, 12:44 PM
RE: Political correctness?
Professor Jordan is far from being considered an unbiased source.

(Plenty of people are smart, but he strikes me as being a dick who likes the attention)

Your faith is not evidence, your opinion is not fact, and your bias is not wisdom
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06-06-2017, 05:28 AM
RE: Political correctness?
(31-05-2017 07:12 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(31-05-2017 06:54 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  People feel as though every word you speak to them is in offense to their race, color, or speech. Where I can agree with Republicans is that Political Correctness is just a stupid thought. You can't sensor everyone just because they say 'a bad word' in your mind.

When some kid tells me I can't call someone by some 'derogatory name' when in truth it's just a word. I tell them to either grow a pair or go run to their mommy about how the 'Real World' is 'Too Scary'.

I think people need to grow a thicker skin, everywhere you go people are thinking bad thoughts about you, or someone is talking behind your back. Why? Because we are humans, it's how it happens.

As for this idea that Mexicans must be the only ones to run taco places. Well buddy, welcome to the busy making place, where people don't give two shits about you and your feelings and are only it to make money. Either realize this reality, or go back to the fantasy world where everything revolves around you. It'll make your job easier if you have your safe space in your mind.

I tend to agree with this sentiment, but also have a tendency to flip it around. If you say something and someone tells you are offensive, full of shit, uncouth, bigoted, etc, you should also be expected to swallow it. If one is expected to be capable of handling a certain amount of critique, insults, disrespect, hyperboles and jokes so should the other. People can and will dislike you for what you say, how you say it and what they think you mean.

To often, when I hear people talking about Political Correctness, I hear people saying that their audience should grow a skin. What I frequently get from that is that those very same people simply don't like to be criticised for what they say and how they say it. I guess my main problem with comes from the hypocrisy and macho posturing hidden beneath this labbel.

That is very true. Which is why I find people who get so offended to be annoying. Some people have had it too easy and never really had to put up with others shit. I was often the target of ridicule in my school as I never rolled over on command because some authority person (Preacher, teacher, or adult) told me to believe it. I wanted the facts for myself.
Yet I was mocked, bullied, and yelled at for such thoughts. I've learned to take derogatory names as these people are just the names they call me.

"Governments don't want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking That is against their interests.
They want obedient workers people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork And just dumb enough to passively accept it."

- George Carlin
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06-06-2017, 08:07 AM
RE: Political correctness?
(31-05-2017 04:41 PM)Dr H Wrote:  Portland burrito shop, run by two white women, closes amidst allegations of cultural appropriation:

"There’s really nothing special about opening a Mexican restaurant—it’s probably something that happens everyday. But the owners of Kooks Burritos all but admitted in an interview with Willamette Week that they colonized this style of food when they decided to 'pick the brains of every tortilla lady there in the worst broken Spanish ever.'"

Can't wait for them to go after all the pizzerias that aren't being run by Italians from lower Manhattan.

I feel bad for white people. Only white people could be attacked for deciding to make tacos. When the Korean do it, they're praised.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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06-06-2017, 03:07 PM
RE: Political correctness?
(02-06-2017 04:27 PM)Vera Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 03:39 PM)Dr H Wrote:  That we should legally curtail everyone's liberty, because some people happen to be assholes?

Do you even KNOW how SOCIETIES work or are you too busy getting a hardon from hearing yourself speak to give a fuck? Or to stop and think before you start bloviating?
Was that intended as an answer to my question?

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"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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06-06-2017, 03:31 PM
RE: Political correctness?
(06-06-2017 05:28 AM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  That is very true. Which is why I find people who get so offended to be annoying. Some people have had it too easy and never really had to put up with others shit. I was often the target of ridicule in my school as I never rolled over on command because some authority person (Preacher, teacher, or adult) told me to believe it. I wanted the facts for myself.
Yet I was mocked, bullied, and yelled at for such thoughts. I've learned to take derogatory names as these people are just the names they call me.

But that's the thing about free speech. People can say thing that are offensive, as long as it is just words. I have the right to feel offended by their words, and the right to counter with a few choice words of my own, as long as I keep it to words, and not, for instance .. a baseball bat to the gonads of the offender. (Though I have a right to imagine doing that, with a smile on my face.) You have a right to be annoyed with my taking of offense, if that's your thing, and express that annoyance in words.

The thing that I find annoying is that people want free speech for themselves with no consequences. Like the Harvard (non)students who lost their places at Harvard for stupid Facebook posts. WAAAAAAAA!!! But it was free speech! How dare Harvard .. etc. etc. But Harvard is a private university, not an entity of government, so if the board found the memes offensive, they were within their right to revoke the acceptance of the students. Actions have consequences, folks, even if the action is the "free speech" everyone wants.
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06-06-2017, 03:39 PM (This post was last modified: 06-06-2017 03:43 PM by Vera.)
RE: Political correctness?
Quote:Yet I was mocked, bullied, and yelled at for such thoughts. I've learned to take derogatory names as these people are just the names they call me.

So because you were bullied, everyone else should be, too and should just accept it? And this somehow makes it right?

And you do realise PC doesn't really mean "don't bully people", right?

(06-06-2017 03:07 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 04:27 PM)Vera Wrote:  Do you even KNOW how SOCIETIES work or are you too busy getting a hardon from hearing yourself speak to give a fuck? Or to stop and think before you start bloviating?
Was that intended as an answer to my question?

No, I quoted your BS for the pleasure reading it fills me with. Drinking Beverage

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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06-06-2017, 03:59 PM
RE: Political correctness?
(02-06-2017 04:50 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Respectfully, I'm not sure WTF you're talking about, Dr. H.

There's no attempt by anyone, as far as I am aware, to make any form of PC speech policing into statute/law.
Well, the point of my OP concerned "cultural appropriation", and not "PC speech", so it's not surprising that you may have gotten lost.
Others brought in speech, and I just ran with it for a while, but it really wasn't my primary concern.

Quote:The only thing that is legislated into statute is speech that is threatening or designed to place a person in a state of fear-- assault. Every version of that statute (including Hate Speech aggravated-sentencing laws) I have ever seen requires that a prosecutor convince the jury that the person had the intent to cause harm with their speech, to place the victim into a state of fear.
Did I say anything about "statutes"?

PC speech is, at least for now, primarily a cultural phenomenon. Not that it couldn't become something else, eventually.
But something doesn't have to be a law to still be repressive.

Quote:What is happening with "PC speech" is a push-back by people of empathy against those who think it's okay to use whatever speech they want without repercussion-- social repercussion. There's no law anywhere that says I can't call someone the N-word, yet you almost never hear it anymore. Why? Because enough people of good will stood up and said "you need to stop that right now, you asshole". That's what "PC" is, and that's what is at the root of almost every complaint I have ever seen against "PC" advocates; they think they should be able to slur anyone for being different from the majority, using whatever pejoratives they choose, without being called out on it.
It's been used for more than that. "PC" has been used to stifle free speech, to the point of suppressing certain kinds of discussion, stopping people from speaking publically, and interfering with personal liberties and careers.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.12...CLP0704_05
http://nypost.com/2016/10/30/nyu-profess...classroom/
http://registerguard.com/rg/news/local/3...s.html.csp
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/f...-cancelled
http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/20/us/campus-...index.html
http://www.npr.org/2017/05/05/527092506/...-on-campus
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016...discussion
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me...story.html

Quote:Do I think that some of the extremists go too far? Sure. I think "cultural appropriation" is utter bullshit, especially in the United States where almost literally every type of (good) food, music, and style is heavily, heavily influenced by the fusion of various cultures, here in the great melting pot.
We are agreed on that point, then.


Quote:That's not PC, that's basic human decency. I just don't see "I have a right to free speech" as a defense against treating other human beings like shit for who they are, as opposed to criticizing their ideas or actions.
It is not PC to ask people to be civil to one another.
It is PC when we require them to be so.

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Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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06-06-2017, 04:04 PM
RE: Political correctness?
(02-06-2017 05:22 PM)Vera Wrote:  Even if all of the above is true (and that's a BIG if), it is still light years better than the alternative. But hey, they had true freedom, back in those glorious, glorious days, when men were men and people could say whatever the hell they pleased and no fucking government could tell them what to do, gawd damn them all!

Wow.

Vera, do your knees every hurt from jerking like that?

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"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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