Political correctness?
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01-06-2017, 07:59 AM (This post was last modified: 01-06-2017 08:14 AM by Vera.)
RE: Political correctness?
You're right, Heath. But the playing field is not really equal, not yet. And that, unfortunately, is why we probably still need programmes like this.

I was told about how prejudiced people here are against a recent wave of Haitian immigrants and how the Haitians are much better educated than a lot of the locals... and yet, they have to settle for cleaning toilets and jobs like this. It's... way more complicated than either of us is making it look...

Sadly, now I really should get down to work...

May get back to this if inspiration strikes Rolleyes

It's just... I've heard one too many (wealthy!) white men bitch how hard it is these days and frankly, it's hard to take it anymore...

But now - to the elfmobile, or something. Duty calls. Rolleyes

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01-06-2017, 08:08 AM
RE: Political correctness?
Not that it's evidence of anything, and maybe (most likely) bias on my part as I was raised by a single mother for 16 years, which gave me a very strong positive outlook on what it is to be a working women...

...in almost every single job I've had, my direct superior has been a women who has been paid much much more that I was on at the time. Not to say the men weren't earning more in similar positions, but that's just what I've noticed over the years.

In saying that as a kid, my father worked in a factory earning a fair amount of money, whilst my mother had to work 2 jobs AND go to college to keep the lights on in the house...so again not as plain as others think.

For a personal opinion on the matter, I think women are like 95% equal in most lines of work, with a few doddering old men making terrible uninformed decisions about people based on gender making up the latter 5%. Plus with public minds changing constantly it is slowly creeping up to 100%, although who knows if it'll ever be there.

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01-06-2017, 08:31 AM
RE: Political correctness?
(01-06-2017 06:59 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  
(01-06-2017 06:45 AM)Vera Wrote:  First off, personal anecdotes mean squat, especially on the internet.
No argument there, which is why I included the link to the university website.

(01-06-2017 06:45 AM)Vera Wrote:  And is it okay to ask a woman if she intends to have children and not hire her because of this?
Of course not, and if any HR person under my supervision tried this she'd be fired immediately, with cause.

(01-06-2017 06:45 AM)Vera Wrote:  And if we're going be woe-is-me-ing,poor, mistreated, white men, let's go to the board of directors of ANY big company, see if it's "exclusively female". Wanna make a bet? Put your money where you mouth is? I mean, it's soooo hard for white, middle-aged men these days, isn't? No good jobs for them, poor things.

Drinking Beverage
You know why those boards of directors are almost exclusively male?

Because they've been putting in 60, 70, 80 hours a week for a decade or more. They're also more likely to die prematurely (heart attack, stroke, cancer, etc etc.) as a direct result of working so damn hard, and more likely to die of suicide if their career aspirations are stymied.

References: Why Are So Many Middle-Aged White Americans Dying?

Why white, older men are more likely to die of suicide

Women, generally, are smarter than that. They are more likely to realize that family life is much more important to a person's well-being than being on a board of directors.

I note that you didn't actually respond to my question: Is it acceptable to deny a person a job opportunity based exclusively on their gender and race?

Your links don't demonstrate a link between white men working harder and longer hours to achieve success than women or minorities.

Your claim suggests that white men hold a higher percentage of C-level/board-level positions because they work harder and longer to achieve it. I think you'd find many women and minorities also work hard and long hours but don't reach those positions because they are starting from a lower level and have farther to climb up the ladder- or, the Matthew effect.

Moreover, women and minorities face a strong bias against them in favor of a "typical looking" (i.e. white male) leader in order to just secure the position once they have the opportunity and qualifications. Combine that with the problem that when a company has a women or minority leader, and starts to experience any difficulties, they are often replaced by a white male. You have both the glass ceiling and the glass cliff effect at play.

In regards to your story- they aren't entirely uncommon. And it sucks to be sure! Can you be mad about it? Sure, I guess, why not? I mean- it was an opportunity you would normally be provided but was denied you on the basis on gender and race... in the effort of offering the job to someone who is a woman and/or minority who might not otherwise have such an opportunity at all. Maybe you can think of a better way to fix the bias that PoC and women face trying to enter the work force? A solution that doesn't require employers to meet diversity standards? I mean, diversity standards to suck for white guys, who are used to being able to have those opportunities available to them. I'm sure women and minorities don't enjoy having to rely on a company's minimum diversity quota to get a job.
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01-06-2017, 08:40 AM
RE: Political correctness?
(01-06-2017 08:31 AM)Emma Wrote:  ... or, the Matthew effect.

I wasn't familiar with this. Thanks for sharing this info!

It seems a bit reminiscent of the Malcolm Gladwell theory in Outliers which hypothesized that a lot of factors, from birth order to month of birth and the wealth of one's parents, have more to do with how one will do later in life than many other influences.
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01-06-2017, 09:15 AM
RE: Political correctness?
(31-05-2017 04:41 PM)Dr H Wrote:  Portland burrito shop, run by two white women, closes amidst allegations of cultural appropriation:

"There’s really nothing special about opening a Mexican restaurant—it’s probably something that happens everyday. But the owners of Kooks Burritos all but admitted in an interview with Willamette Week that they colonized this style of food when they decided to 'pick the brains of every tortilla lady there in the worst broken Spanish ever.'"

Can't wait for them to go after all the pizzerias that aren't being run by Italians from lower Manhattan.

It may surprise some of my detractors on the right, but as a liberal, some things I see as ridiculous and this would be one of them.

In a very scientific evolutionary sense, our species would not have all its worldwide different looks if it were not for migrating and mixing.

I think this is fucking stupid. It is food, if someone likes what you are doing, and seeks to copy it, don't think of it as theft, but a complement.

I'd say if you want to get upset at food, get upset at all the fake fast food even hamburger lovers should be insulted by McDonalds. Taco Bell is also bullshit.

But if a mom and pop shop is opening an international style of food and not simply marketing an image like a fast food chain, everyone should welcome that.

This is just as stupid as say when many in the martial arts back in the 1970s got angry at Bruce Lee for teaching his style to westerners. WHO GIVES A FUCK, if you have something good, what is wrong with sharing?

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01-06-2017, 09:21 AM
RE: Political correctness?
A few weeks ago I watched a cooking show on a PBS station where the host visited Japan, my x wife was Japanese so out of curiosity I watched. It wasn't in a restaurant, but in the lady's home. She showed the host how to cook her mom's favorite recipe home cooked Japanese style tempura meatballs and soup. I didn't see her shouting, "NO IT'S OUR FOOD, NOT YOURS".

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01-06-2017, 09:26 AM
RE: Political correctness?
This whole thing about political correctness is a bunch of BS. Just be a freaking decent human being and show some empathy and everyone is happy.

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01-06-2017, 09:42 AM
RE: Political correctness?
(01-06-2017 09:26 AM)Dom Wrote:  This whole thing about political correctness is a bunch of BS. Just be a freaking decent human being and show some empathy and everyone is happy.

If people did that, then the concept of political correctness would not need to exist. But some people don't behave kindly to others.

In my opinion, it's easy to hate on political correctness- especially because of this "PC gone too far" trope. I think that all political correctness is is a tool for enforcing a standard of being a decent human being by way of educating people on what is harmful to other people different than you (and often more disadvantaged than you), and then further- shaming people who refuse to be decent humans. Do people take it too far? Yeah, sure, of course. But that doesn't mean the tool should be thrown away. Because without it, the disadvantaged to suffer all the more under discrimination, insult, marginalization, mockery, etc.

But, how would you define political correctness?
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01-06-2017, 10:07 AM
RE: Political correctness?
(01-06-2017 09:42 AM)Emma Wrote:  
(01-06-2017 09:26 AM)Dom Wrote:  This whole thing about political correctness is a bunch of BS. Just be a freaking decent human being and show some empathy and everyone is happy.

If people did that, then the concept of political correctness would not need to exist. But some people don't behave kindly to others.

In my opinion, it's easy to hate on political correctness- especially because of this "PC gone too far" trope. I think that all political correctness is is a tool for enforcing a standard of being a decent human being by way of educating people on what is harmful to other people different than you (and often more disadvantaged than you), and then further- shaming people who refuse to be decent humans. Do people take it too far? Yeah, sure, of course. But that doesn't mean the tool should be thrown away. Because without it, the disadvantaged to suffer all the more under discrimination, insult, marginalization, mockery, etc.

But, how would you define political correctness?

Good intent can lead to bad things. I do value the intent of combating hate and bigotry. But here is the problem with that good intent. Power shifts over long periods of time, and you cannot predict what that power will be in the future. If you start demanding censorship as an always thing in all contexts, you can potentially hand a loaded gun to government who may eventually get to something you might want to say that others might find offensive.

Right now we have a huge push by the far right to gain a monopoly of power now do you really want that power telling you you cant offend them ever?

North Korea is what political correctness looks like. Saudi Arabia and Iran are also what can happen when government demands nobody offend anyone.

That is not to say it will happen in the west, just that it can happen if we let it.

If all 7 billion of us as humans had the power of censorship there is not one individual that cannot think of things we would rather not hear. Civility to me is not about never offending, or getting offended, but how we respond to those situations.

I am all for fighting bigotry and hate, I am not for blanket solutions when it comes to speech. It depends and can only be treated as a case by case issue and a context issue. The common law is already there that nobody has the right to call for violence or act out in violence.

But yea, I do want my own right to say "fuck your bigotry", or "your book is an old book of myth". If some on the far right had their way, they would outlaw that.

Point is, you are oversimplifying it. It would be nice if everyone only said nice things about each other, but in reality, humans dont always do that. And even beyond that, some ideas and claims ARE worthy of condemnation and ridicule. The only thing any side should agree on is strict non violence even in the face of getting offended.

Nobody is obligated by law, for example, to like me personally, but we all should value the common law, that if you advocate violence or act out in violence, it should not matter the reason you should get arrested.

Outside that, it is up to the courts to decide and to protect human rights equally, even the ability to offend. But only case by case.

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01-06-2017, 10:08 AM
RE: Political correctness?
God the irony! Facepalm

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