Political correctness?
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01-06-2017, 10:27 AM
RE: Political correctness?
(01-06-2017 09:26 AM)Dom Wrote:  This whole thing about political correctness is a bunch of BS. Just be a freaking decent human being and show some empathy and everyone is happy.

What's even more absurd? That their obnoxious views have not been legislated against. But if you were to hear them say it, you would think the first amendment has been struck off the books. Their real beef is that too many people are not okay with douchebaggery.

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01-06-2017, 10:27 AM
RE: Political correctness?
(01-06-2017 10:07 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(01-06-2017 09:42 AM)Emma Wrote:  If people did that, then the concept of political correctness would not need to exist. But some people don't behave kindly to others.

In my opinion, it's easy to hate on political correctness- especially because of this "PC gone too far" trope. I think that all political correctness is is a tool for enforcing a standard of being a decent human being by way of educating people on what is harmful to other people different than you (and often more disadvantaged than you), and then further- shaming people who refuse to be decent humans. Do people take it too far? Yeah, sure, of course. But that doesn't mean the tool should be thrown away. Because without it, the disadvantaged to suffer all the more under discrimination, insult, marginalization, mockery, etc.

But, how would you define political correctness?

Good intent can lead to bad things. I do value the intent of combating hate and bigotry. But here is the problem with that good intent. Power shifts over long periods of time, and you cannot predict what that power will be in the future. If you start demanding censorship as an always thing in all contexts, you can potentially hand a loaded gun to government who may eventually get to something you might want to say that others might find offensive.

Right now we have a huge push by the far right to gain a monopoly of power now do you really want that power telling you you cant offend them ever?

North Korea is what political correctness looks like. Saudi Arabia and Iran are also what can happen when government demands nobody offend anyone.

That is not to say it will happen in the west, just that it can happen if we let it.

If all 7 billion of us as humans had the power of censorship there is not one individual that cannot think of things we would rather not hear. Civility to me is not about never offending, or getting offended, but how we respond to those situations.

I am all for fighting bigotry and hate, I am not for blanket solutions when it comes to speech. It depends and can only be treated as a case by case issue and a context issue. The common law is already there that nobody has the right to call for violence or act out in violence.

But yea, I do want my own right to say "fuck your bigotry", or "your book is an old book of myth". If some on the far right had their way, they would outlaw that.

Point is, you are oversimplifying it. It would be nice if everyone only said nice things about each other, but in reality, humans dont always do that. And even beyond that, some ideas and claims ARE worthy of condemnation and ridicule. The only thing any side should agree on is strict non violence even in the face of getting offended.

Nobody is obligated by law, for example, to like me personally, but we all should value the common law, that if you advocate violence or act out in violence, it should not matter the reason you should get arrested.

Outside that, it is up to the courts to decide and to protect human rights equally, even the ability to offend. But only case by case.

Holy shit man... wow.

Okay- of course it's oversimplified. Neither of us is equipped to talk about this subject in extreme detail. You can't tell me you're not oversimplifying it by saying "North Korea is what political correctness looks like." You need to justify that statement somehow- why is it like North Korea? And the same with Saudi Arabia and Iran. Because what I don't see where political correctness created or props up those tyrannical regimes. Rather, those in power or those who took power managed to consolidate it and continue to hold it. Watch this fascinating playlist by CGP Grey called Rules for Rulers, which is about how to gain power and hold on to it.

Political correctness can be a tool wielded by governments, or by civilians. Government enforced political correctness ought to be extremely limited. Rather, civilian political correctness enforced by tools such as protests, public shaming, boycotts, etc. are more palatable.

Of course it can go too far or lead to bad things. That sucks. Name something that can't fail. Name a better and more effective tool to help the marginalized.

What I'm hearing from you is that "Political Correctness is some sort of extreme is dangerous because it can sometimes lead to bad things. So instead, people should just not be assholes, but they also should be assholes sometimes. So let's just let people who are fucked over by society stay fucked over by society."

You still didn't really answer my question of what Political Correctness means to you- how would you define it? Not what effect you think it has- but what it actually is in your mind?
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01-06-2017, 10:34 AM
RE: Political correctness?
What an ignorant, ignorant, IGNORANT man. Political correctness and censorship in a totalitarian regime are two entirely different things.

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01-06-2017, 10:47 AM
RE: Political correctness?
They had a food cart that made breakfast burritos -- and other things.

They sucked and went out of business. There are hundreds food carts in the Portland metro area --they actually advertise it in other states...come to Oregon, we have food carts.

They're building more pods all over.

Personally, I wish most of them would go away.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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01-06-2017, 10:54 AM
RE: Political correctness?
(01-06-2017 10:34 AM)Vera Wrote:  What an ignorant, ignorant, IGNORANT man. Political correctness and censorship in a totalitarian regime are two entirely different things.

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Nobody was trying to make that argument.

I was saying BE CAREFUL because good intent does not always play out to what you desire. Political correctness is a loaded term and can mean different things to different individuals, and I have seen BOTH party's followers banter that term around.

The point is to avoid those totalitarian outcomes.

Closed states that silence dissent are politically correct but the added ingredient is government force.

Free speech in the west even allowing things that offend you is what separates us from becoming like that. Speech cannot be ruled by blanket solutions, that was the only point I was making.

So when you say "what is wrong with political correctness", I see what it could become, not that it is now.

But if you want me on board with blanket solutions in all contexts of "never say" no, I am not on board with that.

Again, I think your good intent misses the point that power shifts over decades and hundreds of years even. I'd be careful of what you say you want, because right now our right wing is yielding alot of power, and could easily say, "if you don't want us offending you, then you cant offend us".

There is absolutely NO pragmatic way in a diverse open society that you can rid all speech of language that might offend someone else. I want my right to offend the right. I want my right to say "fuck you bigot". I want my right to blaspheme idiots like Pat Robertson. I want my right to say, "fuck your bible based homophobia".

I am not going to risk giving them the power of censorship. Speech can only be taken on the context of a given situation.

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01-06-2017, 11:07 AM
RE: Political correctness?
Every FUCKING good thing can become bad if taken to an extreme. Which no one (other than some fringe lunatics) is doing. Your point is completely moot.

Maybe we should've stayed in the trees (hell, in the ocean) because leaving them might lead to global warming.

Facepalm

Also, the world is not limited to YOUR fucked up country. My part of the world isn't filled with YOUR brand of right-wing fanatics. Nor is Canada, for example. America is not the world!

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01-06-2017, 11:08 AM
RE: Political correctness?
This is an excerpt from an article in The Australian newspaper a couple of months ago, written by a former federal government minister, Peter Baldwin...


"I consider the mindset we have come to refer to as political correctness to be a
cancer, an ideological malignancy afflicting the Western world that chills
speech, wantonly and unjustly destroys the lives and reputations of decent
people, and seriously compromises our ability to hold open and honest debates
about some of the most important issues that face our societies...

Defenders of PC see it as essentially benign, except in maybe a few extreme
cases. All it does, they say, is urge us to avoid racist, sexist and homophobic
abuse; just institutionalized politeness really...

The great tragedy is that modern PC ideology is a ghastly mutation of earlier
movements that embodied these very sentiments: the civil rights movement to
end racial discrimination, earlier waves of feminism that demanded equality of
opportunity for women, the campaigns to end legal discrimination against
homosexuals...

I think PC is best described as an attempt to impose a comprehensive set of
constraints on what can be said or debated, publicly or even privately, whenever
such speech conflicts with the current version of the ever-changing identity politics
ideology. It is the compliance and enforcement arm of this ideology."


—I agree that PC increases the danger of stifling non-confrontational free speech, at the risk of one being labelled a racist, or a homophobe, xenophobic, sectarian, a dogmatist or..... you get the idea.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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01-06-2017, 11:11 AM
RE: Political correctness?
(01-06-2017 10:07 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  North Korea is what political correctness looks like. Saudi Arabia and Iran are also what can happen when government demands nobody offend anyone.

I see what you did there. It's almost as if you are stealing lines from Ben Carson.

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01-06-2017, 11:14 AM (This post was last modified: 01-06-2017 11:17 AM by Vera.)
RE: Political correctness?
But the repeated, century-long demonisation, marginalisation, ostracisation and downright persecution of all sorts of minorities or just those different from the ruling majority is just a benign quirk of society?


If I may borrow a phrase from dancefortwo, Peter What's-His-Face-Why-Should-I-Give-Even-A-Single-Fuck-About-His-Opinions, can go fuck himself with a giggy stick.

See, there isn't any cancerous growth stifling this place and stopping me from saying this.

I repeat, the amount of venom that springs forth from some people simply because they've been asked - in the FUCKING PUBLIC SPHERE -not to treat or refer to those slightly different from them like scum is staggering. Hard to keep faith in humanity in times like this.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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01-06-2017, 11:21 AM
RE: Political correctness?
(01-06-2017 11:07 AM)Vera Wrote:  Every FUCKING good thing can become bad if taken to an extreme. Which no one (other than some fringe lunatics) is doing. Your point is completely moot.

Maybe we should've stayed in the trees (hell, in the ocean) because leaving them might lead to global warming.

Facepalm

Also, the world is not limited to YOUR fucked up country. My part of the world isn't filled with YOUR brand of right-wing fanatics. Nor is Canada, for example. America is not the world!

Not sure whom you are addressing, but if it was me, I am both a social and economic liberal. I hate the far right, and I despise Trump.

That is why I value my right to say "Fuck Trump" and "fuck homophobia".

I don't value any idea that says never offend ever. That was the only point I was making.

But no, I see nothing wrong with what Bill Maher or Ayaan Hersi Ali do as far as blaspheming religion.

Yes I do cuss out religious bigotry coming from the far right. No, I will not apologize for that.

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