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Political philosophies (a discussion?)
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08-07-2013, 12:36 PM
RE: Political philosophies (a discussion?)
This is where we need to start in the US. We have the companies here, but they are not technically here in a financial sense. If they want to play here, they need to pay here.

(08-07-2013 12:32 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  
(08-07-2013 12:21 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Most people do.
This is why America is such an economic powerhouse though, because of it's unique political environment.

You see, when people in say England are feeling slanted by "the man" (business/government), they vote in a left wing party to increase their working conditions etc.. but at the expense of overall economic progress
Then when the left wing government fucks up the countries budget spending all it's money on handouts and tax cuts they vote in a right wing government to sort it out, and economic progress continues, at the expense of worker conditions.
And so the cycle continues and overall stays on that slower progressive equilibrium.

'Merica however is extremely religious... thus conservative. As such the issues are always social and because those that favor conservative social issues also tend to have right wing economic views it's always been a right wing in power. Even when it's the Democrats, it's still a ring wing compared to the rest of the world.
As such America has become this economic powerhouse with like 90% of the worlds Fortune 500 companies, but at the expense of the worker. BUT because the way the market works the economic success of businesses has flowed down throughout the people and so 'Merican's haven't complained. So your political spectrum is comparatively far more right wing then the rest of the world (what you would consider left wing we would consider right wing for example).

The issue then now entails that you are stupidly far right. BUT, 'Merica is still plagued by Crackernation and so progress towards shifting the spectrum to the left, while it is happening, it will remain slow.

Agreed, and that would be well and good if those fortune 500 globals paid their taxes...or upheld some allegiance to the American people. It's all at the market level, anyone who doesn't have the cash to play that game is quite screwed. The headquarters might be here but the manufacturing is in China and the taxes are being paid to Ireland and the Caymans.

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08-07-2013, 12:36 PM
RE: Political philosophies (a discussion?)
(08-07-2013 12:32 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  
(08-07-2013 12:21 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Most people do.
This is why America is such an economic powerhouse though, because of it's unique political environment.

You see, when people in say England are feeling slanted by "the man" (business/government), they vote in a left wing party to increase their working conditions etc.. but at the expense of overall economic progress
Then when the left wing government fucks up the countries budget spending all it's money on handouts and tax cuts they vote in a right wing government to sort it out, and economic progress continues, at the expense of worker conditions.
And so the cycle continues and overall stays on that slower progressive equilibrium.

'Merica however is extremely religious... thus conservative. As such the issues are always social and because those that favor conservative social issues also tend to have right wing economic views it's always been a right wing in power. Even when it's the Democrats, it's still a ring wing compared to the rest of the world.
As such America has become this economic powerhouse with like 90% of the worlds Fortune 500 companies, but at the expense of the worker. BUT because the way the market works the economic success of businesses has flowed down throughout the people and so 'Merican's haven't complained. So your political spectrum is comparatively far more right wing then the rest of the world (what you would consider left wing we would consider right wing for example).

The issue then now entails that you are stupidly far right. BUT, 'Merica is still plagued by Crackernation and so progress towards shifting the spectrum to the left, while it is happening, it will remain slow.

Agreed, and that would be well and good if those fortune 500 globals paid their taxes...or upheld some allegiance to the American people. It's all at the market level, anyone who doesn't have the cash to play that game is quite screwed. The headquarters might be here but the manufacturing is in China and the taxes are being paid to Ireland and the Caymans.

The tax evasion is down to poor governance, not political philosophy.

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08-07-2013, 12:37 PM
RE: Political philosophies (a discussion?)
(08-07-2013 12:21 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(08-07-2013 12:05 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Then I tend to lean towards support of the workers. I understand businesses seeking to make profit (as that is what they are designed for) and that no amount of regulation should seek to eliminate profit, but profit should not come at the expense of its workers or its customers. The latter category can (as long as this is not a monopoly) select to or not to support the company, but the workers may have little or no say, especially in a bad economy or an unstable one.

Most people do.
This is why America is such an economic powerhouse though, because of it's unique political environment.

You see, when people in say England are feeling slanted by "the man" (business/government), they vote in a left wing party to increase their working conditions etc.. but at the expense of overall economic progress
Then when the left wing government fucks up the countries budget spending all it's money on handouts and tax cuts they vote in a right wing government to sort it out, and economic progress continues, at the expense of worker conditions.
And so the cycle continues and overall stays on that slower progressive equilibrium.

'Merica however is extremely religious... thus conservative. As such the issues are always social and because those that favor conservative social issues also tend to have right wing economic views it's always been a right wing in power. Even when it's the Democrats, it's still a ring wing compared to the rest of the world.
As such America has become this economic powerhouse with like 90% of the worlds Fortune 500 companies, but at the expense of the worker. BUT because the way the market works the economic success of businesses has flowed down throughout the people and so 'Merican's haven't complained. So your political spectrum is comparatively far more right wing then the rest of the world (what you would consider left wing we would consider right wing for example).

The issue then now entails that you are stupidly far right. BUT, 'Merica is still plagued by Crackernation and so progress towards shifting the spectrum to the left, while it is happening, it will remain slow.

Partly this is due to the 2 party system that is not the instance in most of the rest of the world. It works in cycles and currently the Republicans are trending far right but it has always been self correcting and as they lose more and more elections they will swing back towards the middle. Now the Middle in America is slightly Right of Center, it always has been and is based off of the cult of the Individual that is so prevalent in the US.

In most other countries you have many political parties that span the entire political spectrum and you end up with a legislator that is composed of dozens of small parties only hold 1-2 seats up to a few major ones holding something like 20%. This makes forming coalitions necessary and is why 1 government can swing wildly to the left or right after an election in the way thats Muffs described. Also of note most other modern nations don't have a question of "Socialist or Not" but rather how much Socialism from full on cradle to grave government assistance or just full medical and educational coverage by the government.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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08-07-2013, 12:45 PM
RE: Political philosophies (a discussion?)
(08-07-2013 12:36 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(08-07-2013 12:32 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  Agreed, and that would be well and good if those fortune 500 globals paid their taxes...or upheld some allegiance to the American people. It's all at the market level, anyone who doesn't have the cash to play that game is quite screwed. The headquarters might be here but the manufacturing is in China and the taxes are being paid to Ireland and the Caymans.

The tax evasion is down to poor governance, not political philosophy.

Right but that poor governance is the result of unchecked private power, which brings us back to campaign finance and lobby reform. The tax code is written by these multi-nationals and handed down to the congressmen who are too busy campaigning and making back room deals to even read the damn bills.

...In any event I fear that the situation is growing beyond governments control, the money is already gone and the multinationals are already inoperably tied into the global economy.

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08-07-2013, 01:05 PM
RE: Political philosophies (a discussion?)
I don't think introducing more parties would improve our situation at all. Look at the stalemate we currently have. Factor in more parties and any one of them could then begin to hold the system up, no matter how little control they appeared to have.

(08-07-2013 12:37 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(08-07-2013 12:21 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Most people do.
This is why America is such an economic powerhouse though, because of it's unique political environment.

You see, when people in say England are feeling slanted by "the man" (business/government), they vote in a left wing party to increase their working conditions etc.. but at the expense of overall economic progress
Then when the left wing government fucks up the countries budget spending all it's money on handouts and tax cuts they vote in a right wing government to sort it out, and economic progress continues, at the expense of worker conditions.
And so the cycle continues and overall stays on that slower progressive equilibrium.

'Merica however is extremely religious... thus conservative. As such the issues are always social and because those that favor conservative social issues also tend to have right wing economic views it's always been a right wing in power. Even when it's the Democrats, it's still a ring wing compared to the rest of the world.
As such America has become this economic powerhouse with like 90% of the worlds Fortune 500 companies, but at the expense of the worker. BUT because the way the market works the economic success of businesses has flowed down throughout the people and so 'Merican's haven't complained. So your political spectrum is comparatively far more right wing then the rest of the world (what you would consider left wing we would consider right wing for example).

The issue then now entails that you are stupidly far right. BUT, 'Merica is still plagued by Crackernation and so progress towards shifting the spectrum to the left, while it is happening, it will remain slow.

Partly this is due to the 2 party system that is not the instance in most of the rest of the world. It works in cycles and currently the Republicans are trending far right but it has always been self correcting and as they lose more and more elections they will swing back towards the middle. Now the Middle in America is slightly Right of Center, it always has been and is based off of the cult of the Individual that is so prevalent in the US.

In most other countries you have many political parties that span the entire political spectrum and you end up with a legislator that is composed of dozens of small parties only hold 1-2 seats up to a few major ones holding something like 20%. This makes forming coalitions necessary and is why 1 government can swing wildly to the left or right after an election in the way thats Muffs described. Also of note most other modern nations don't have a question of "Socialist or Not" but rather how much Socialism from full on cradle to grave government assistance or just full medical and educational coverage by the government.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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08-07-2013, 01:09 PM
RE: Political philosophies (a discussion?)
(08-07-2013 01:05 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I don't think introducing more parties would improve our situation at all. Look at the stalemate we currently have. Factor in more parties and any one of them could then begin to hold the system up, no matter how little control they appeared to have.

(08-07-2013 12:37 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Partly this is due to the 2 party system that is not the instance in most of the rest of the world. It works in cycles and currently the Republicans are trending far right but it has always been self correcting and as they lose more and more elections they will swing back towards the middle. Now the Middle in America is slightly Right of Center, it always has been and is based off of the cult of the Individual that is so prevalent in the US.

In most other countries you have many political parties that span the entire political spectrum and you end up with a legislator that is composed of dozens of small parties only hold 1-2 seats up to a few major ones holding something like 20%. This makes forming coalitions necessary and is why 1 government can swing wildly to the left or right after an election in the way thats Muffs described. Also of note most other modern nations don't have a question of "Socialist or Not" but rather how much Socialism from full on cradle to grave government assistance or just full medical and educational coverage by the government.

I wasn't stating it was better just different. It was an attempt to explain why the US is the exception to the rule.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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08-07-2013, 01:12 PM
RE: Political philosophies (a discussion?)
(08-07-2013 01:09 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(08-07-2013 01:05 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I don't think introducing more parties would improve our situation at all. Look at the stalemate we currently have. Factor in more parties and any one of them could then begin to hold the system up, no matter how little control they appeared to have.

I wasn't stating it was better just different. It was an attempt to explain why the US is the exception to the rule.

Fair enough. I could see how that could work but I could also see how it would create more stalemates.

A better educated populace could make it work okay though and perhaps better than what we have.

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08-07-2013, 01:12 PM
RE: Political philosophies (a discussion?)
(08-07-2013 01:05 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I don't think introducing more parties would improve our situation at all. Look at the stalemate we currently have. Factor in more parties and any one of them could then begin to hold the system up, no matter how little control they appeared to have.

(08-07-2013 12:37 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Partly this is due to the 2 party system that is not the instance in most of the rest of the world. It works in cycles and currently the Republicans are trending far right but it has always been self correcting and as they lose more and more elections they will swing back towards the middle. Now the Middle in America is slightly Right of Center, it always has been and is based off of the cult of the Individual that is so prevalent in the US.

In most other countries you have many political parties that span the entire political spectrum and you end up with a legislator that is composed of dozens of small parties only hold 1-2 seats up to a few major ones holding something like 20%. This makes forming coalitions necessary and is why 1 government can swing wildly to the left or right after an election in the way thats Muffs described. Also of note most other modern nations don't have a question of "Socialist or Not" but rather how much Socialism from full on cradle to grave government assistance or just full medical and educational coverage by the government.

I disagree, I think a strong 3rd party would go a long way toward fixing our congress. It would force compromise, blur the partisan divide, bring it back to individual issues rather than ideology, and make it more difficult for corporate interests to buy out both sides of the field.

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08-07-2013, 01:13 PM
RE: Political philosophies (a discussion?)
(08-07-2013 01:12 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  
(08-07-2013 01:05 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I don't think introducing more parties would improve our situation at all. Look at the stalemate we currently have. Factor in more parties and any one of them could then begin to hold the system up, no matter how little control they appeared to have.

I disagree, I think a strong 3rd party would go a long way toward fixing our congress. It would force compromise and make it more difficult for corporate interests to buy out both sides of the field.

If a third party were to be introduced, it would almost certainly be libertarian. Who would oppose any increase in government role in social or economic realms. All they would do then, would be to side with neither the Dems or the Repubs.

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08-07-2013, 01:24 PM
RE: Political philosophies (a discussion?)
(08-07-2013 01:13 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(08-07-2013 01:12 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  I disagree, I think a strong 3rd party would go a long way toward fixing our congress. It would force compromise and make it more difficult for corporate interests to buy out both sides of the field.

If a third party were to be introduced, it would almost certainly be libertarian. Who would oppose any increase in government role in social or economic realms. All they would do then, would be to side with neither the Dems or the Repubs.

Okay I concede that this would likely be the case. I'm just saying a 3rd party could be a very good thing, but yes you're right it probably would be the libertarians and they have started to look a lot more like the republicans in recent years.

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