Politics and Religion (again)
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18-09-2011, 06:23 AM
Politics and Religion (again)
http://www.welt.de/regionales/muenchen/a...ionen.html
This is an interesting article, alas in german. You can try to fully translate it, but the point I'm up to is: "Merkel unterstrich die Rolle der Religionen für Einheit und Frieden in der Welt."
translated: Merkel (german head of the government) emphasize the contribution of religion to unity and peace in the world"
That's where I thought: wich contribution? Destroying progress or at least lowering it? Further she said: "The separation of church and state must never let us forget that we, as humans, get soon boastful without our belief in god."

It's alright when a pastor said something like that (we all know that they don't believe a word they say). But she's my chancellor. She has to be secular. That's an insult for me. I'm ashamed of being german Undecided

What do you think?
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18-09-2011, 08:08 AM
RE: Politics and Religion (again)
They got them a pope - and what a pope! - which is an achievement, isn't it?
This kind of smarmy nonsense is everywhere in politics nowadays. I'm not sure whether they're trying to stay on the right (...) side of the US, or they're merely following global fashion, or that every western nation is electing hypocrites to head government and you can't get the job without making pious noises.
I have no idea how you young people are going to reverse this trend.

It's not the mean god I have trouble with - it's the people who worship a mean god.
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21-09-2011, 08:23 PM
RE: Politics and Religion (again)
Religion never destroyed progress, particularly in the Western world, but that's a history discussion I would need to write pages on (suffice it to say: but for the Church after the Fall of Rome, Western Europe would not have recovered as quickly and as well as it did).

Religion CAN cause unity and peace, but it can also cause division and hatred. It is not an "either or" situation. Both things are true. Many people's lives are significantly bettered with religion and by having a solid moral example to look to when they have a crisis. (the What Would Jesus Do? question and so forth). Other people use it as a reason to kill someone. That doesn't make the people whose lives are bettered responsible for the actions of the people who kill. And it doesn't make their religion evil, either.

There have been more deaths and atrocities in human history over copper, wood and salt than over religion, and no one has ever changed their lives for the better because of copper, wood, or salt.

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21-09-2011, 08:29 PM
RE: Politics and Religion (again)
Unless they used copper, wood or salt to support their families and improve society in a forward progressing direction...I agree for the most part otherwise.

Evolve
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22-09-2011, 12:26 AM
 
RE: Politics and Religion (again)
(21-09-2011 08:23 PM)17thknight Wrote:  Many people's lives are significantly bettered with religion and by having a solid moral example to look to when they have a crisis.

Religious beliefs in a human mind is a symptom of several underlining problems:

- Lack of critical thinking
- Gullibility
- Tolerating contradictions
- Epistemological blindness
- Illogical thinking
- Shallowness
- Intellectual cowardice
- Compartmentalization
- Ignorance

I could just say that "Many people's lives are significantly bettered by alcoholism when they have a crisis." or "being crippled can help some people by saving them from sports-related injuries"

Nothing can negate the fact that a human mind suffering from those handicaps I listed above is at a disadvantage in coping with reality.

This handicap may not manifest itself in most routine situations, but the time comes when one would need ALL of one's mental capacity to cope with the unusual and unexpected crisis or tragedy.

How does a religious father cope with a son declaring atheism or homosexuality or refusing military service or wanting to be a hippy? Marry someone from a competing faith ("I would kill him first!")?

Judging by the examples many new members of this board arrive with -- not very well, often ending in mild to devastating tragedy.

I am sorry, but there is only one way for a biological human being, living on a physical planet, to be sane. Billions of years of evolution perfected the human mind to be a problem-solving, learning, adapting computer -- if it is contaminated by the virus of religion, it is not a healthy, well functioning human mind.

And, sooner or later, somebody pays the price.
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22-09-2011, 06:16 AM
RE: Politics and Religion (again)
I totally agree with Zatamon, thanks!
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22-09-2011, 01:15 PM
RE: Politics and Religion (again)
(22-09-2011 12:26 AM)Zatamon Wrote:  How does a religious father cope with a son declaring atheism or homosexuality or refusing military service or wanting to be a hippy? Marry someone from a competing faith ("I would kill him first!")?

My father couldn't have cared less. Neither of my parents cared. None of my family cared.

You're simply bigoted towards religious people, and ironically, are thus as intolerant as you claim they are. That you are incapable of seeing any good in religion is highly emblematic of this.

The kindest, nicest, best people I have known in my life were all religious, and most of them were nuclear engineers, MIT graduates, etc. Not stupid people. Not ignorant buffoons like you would play it out as.

Your post comes off as very snide, condescending, full of intolerance and hatred and I see nothing redeeming in your views. You're a mean, spiteful person and views like yours are why I denied my atheism for so long, which is to say I don't want to become anything like you. I'd rather be a good person, believing in a false god, than a bad person who does not.

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22-09-2011, 01:25 PM
 
RE: Politics and Religion (again)
Oh Dear, I must have ruffled some feathers.

Disagreement is fine -- name calling? on this Forum?

That is a first for me here.

Oh well, we can't all be civilized all the time.

Sad
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22-09-2011, 01:26 PM (This post was last modified: 22-09-2011 01:33 PM by Blythe.)
RE: Politics and Religion (again)
Religion has no place in politics, it should be a personal choice, thats all. here in New Zealand it annoys me that politicians are still sworn in on the bible (if only they would read it, then maybe they would see it for the immoral piece of work it is) . There are usually one or two political parties at election time that are 'christian'. Luckily they get few votes. None of our major parties are religions (outwardly) at all. I find the christian rhetoric in the USA from political leaders very disturbing for people who are leaders in their country. I'm am glad we don't have the same influence from churches here.
(21-09-2011 08:23 PM)17thknight Wrote:  Religion never destroyed progress, particularly in the Western world, but that's a history discussion I would need to write pages on (suffice it to say: but for the Church after the Fall of Rome, Western Europe would not have recovered as quickly and as well as it did).

Religion CAN cause unity and peace, but it can also cause division and hatred. It is not an "either or" situation. Both things are true. Many people's lives are significantly bettered with religion and by having a solid moral example to look to when they have a crisis. (the What Would Jesus Do? question and so forth). Other people use it as a reason to kill someone. That doesn't make the people whose lives are bettered responsible for the actions of the people who kill. And it doesn't make their religion evil, either.

There have been more deaths and atrocities in human history over copper, wood and salt than over religion, and no one has ever changed their lives for the better because of copper, wood, or salt.

Ideas are much more powerful than copper, wood or salt. I disagree that peoples lives are better with religion, having lived in both worlds, I have see much more intolerance and rejection from the christian people than I have ever seen from those who do not believe. But all this is personal experience, and yours seems to be better than many who have left christianity. Religion, as an ideology, is evil as it teaches things like normal human behaviour are evil (homosexuality, masturbation, even sex if its not in 'marriage'. Thus it is not beneficial to many many people.

I want for myself what I want for every women, absolute equality. Agnes Macphail
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22-09-2011, 01:52 PM (This post was last modified: 22-09-2011 02:05 PM by 17thknight.)
RE: Politics and Religion (again)
(22-09-2011 01:25 PM)Zatamon Wrote:  Oh Dear, I must have ruffled some feathers.

Disagreement is fine -- name calling? on this Forum?

Are you incapable of seeing that you are name-calling the religious?
(22-09-2011 01:26 PM)Blythe Wrote:  Ideas are much more powerful than copper, wood or salt. I dis.

Ideas have a lasting power, certainly, and they can shape our morality for eons. However, ideas are not he primary cause of war, strife, and suffering. The primary impetus of nearly every war in history is land and resources.

Ideas change mankind forever, but people kill for the acquisition of materials, power, etc.

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