Poll: What is your preferred afterlife
This poll is closed.
Supernatural hell: Get tortured for a hundred years, but not actually and then be turned loose to temp people. 11.76% 2 11.76%
Supernatural heaven: Supposedly your idea of paradise, but from what I saw way too cramped to spend an eternity. 23.53% 4 23.53%
Catholic idea: Burn forever. 0% 0 0%
Seperation from god for eternity. 64.71% 11 64.71%
Total 17 votes 100%
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Poll: What version of the afterlife would you prefer?
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10-10-2017, 07:17 AM
RE: Poll: What version of the afterlife would you prefer?
(10-10-2017 06:53 AM)Belaqua Wrote:  
(10-10-2017 05:49 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  Assertions grounded in observations are truths, not just "good reasons."

Oh dear. That's a big thing to say.

True assertions grounded in observations are truths, but lots of assertions grounded in observations are wrong.

Don't forget that any sensory input is explained via theory. And there are times when more than one theory can give a non-stupid explanation for a given observation. (At least at a given time; changes in theory or additional data can narrow things down.)

Assertions can be as ambiguous as observations. I was assuming accuracy in both.

In any case, you seem to have dodged my main point, which was that observations are not just reasons. Reasons are how we apply observations, like to support existing social structures or pursue our own ends.

While you may want to reduce all assertions to varieties of social constructs, I still disagree. Assertions based on observations have an entirely different standing.
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11-10-2017, 04:41 AM
RE: Poll: What version of the afterlife would you prefer?
(10-10-2017 06:53 AM)Belaqua Wrote:  So if you live in a time and place when every educated person uses religious theory to explain observed phenomena, and their explanations meet pretty well with the available data, which of course isn't as good as we have now, then empirical observations give good reasons to believe religious theory. Given, of course, the usual amount of confirmation bias, which we still have in abundance.

What religious theory or theories are you referring to here?
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11-10-2017, 06:03 AM
RE: Poll: What version of the afterlife would you prefer?
(10-10-2017 07:17 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  you seem to have dodged my main point

This is an accusation of intentional duplicity. Why would I come here and dodge points?

Any Principle of Charity in a debate would consider that I might be misunderstanding you, or I might be trying to respond in a relevant way but doing it poorly, or you might not be understanding why my response is relevant to your main point. To jump immediately to accusation is unwarranted and, I believe, undeserved.

But it's been explained to me that on this forum accusations and personal insults are the norm.

So I will unregister from the site and look for a different kind of discussion. Thank you anyway.
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11-10-2017, 06:08 AM
RE: Poll: What version of the afterlife would you prefer?
(11-10-2017 06:03 AM)Belaqua Wrote:  
(10-10-2017 07:17 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  you seem to have dodged my main point

This is an accusation of intentional duplicity. Why would I come here and dodge points?

Any Principle of Charity in a debate would consider that I might be misunderstanding you, or I might be trying to respond in a relevant way but doing it poorly, or you might not be understanding why my response is relevant to your main point. To jump immediately to accusation is unwarranted and, I believe, undeserved.

But it's been explained to me that on this forum accusations and personal insults are the norm.

So I will unregister from the site and look for a different kind of discussion. Thank you anyway.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

I just love such dramatic announcements.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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11-10-2017, 06:16 AM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2017 07:19 AM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: Poll: What version of the afterlife would you prefer?
(11-10-2017 06:03 AM)Belaqua Wrote:  
(10-10-2017 07:17 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  you seem to have dodged my main point

Why would I come here and dodge points?

Sorry. I did say "seem" -- which is to say I was describing how it looked to me. Plus people miss points all the time, so the word "dodge" was inappropriate.

However, I did intend to add a bit more to our conversation before I read your last post.

Specifically, while I don't think the ontological argument ever worked, both the cosmological and teleological arguments were built on reasonable working assumptions in the past. For stellar, planetary, and biological evolution to work on chance occurrences to create such a remarkably elaborate and unique world as our own, there had to be a lot of time and a lot of different situations for them to work on. So without understanding how old and how big our universe really was, it was not unreasonable to assume some sort of designer or supernatural agency created our world.

Whether you can jump from those bare assumptions to all the elaborations of Christianity (or Judaism or Islam) is a completely different issue, but I can at least grant you that much -- if indeed that was what you were trying to convey.
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11-10-2017, 06:20 AM
RE: Poll: What version of the afterlife would you prefer?
(11-10-2017 06:08 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  I just love such dramatic announcements.

Especially when TTA is like a reverse Hotel California of forums - you can leave but you can't check out Rolleyes

[Image: baby-crying-o.gif]

Funny thing, is very often the mental wankers who do this, the ones who think they are being oh-so-deep and philosophical and erudite. And are just splashing their sterile (as in devoid of any real thought) mental sperm all over the forum Drinking Beverage

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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11-10-2017, 08:24 PM
RE: Poll: What version of the afterlife would you prefer?
I guess I messed up.
Undecided
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11-10-2017, 09:45 PM
RE: Poll: What version of the afterlife would you prefer?
(11-10-2017 06:03 AM)Belaqua Wrote:  This is an accusation of intentional duplicity. Why would I come here and dodge points?
It's funny you should ask because you go on to indirectly answer your own question.

(11-10-2017 06:03 AM)Belaqua Wrote:  So I will unregister from the site and look for a different kind of discussion.

It's 'cause you a little bitch son. One kinda sorta semi-accusation of possible evasiveness is all it takes for you to grab your purse, chuck your balls inside, and head for the hills. You don't have the stamina for this place and if that's all it takes for you to judge the whole forum as not worth your time you ain't got the grey for it either.

Oh and for the record assholes come here all the time to dodge questions, it's not like you would be an anomaly if ya did.

Kneel mortal before Whiskey I, Lord of Dalmore, Duke of Jameson, Defender of the Sloshed, and God-Emperor of Holy Terra.
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11-10-2017, 09:46 PM
RE: Poll: What version of the afterlife would you prefer?
(11-10-2017 08:24 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  I guess I messed up.
Undecided
No you did not.

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11-10-2017, 10:11 PM
RE: Poll: What version of the afterlife would you prefer?
(09-10-2017 08:19 PM)Belaqua Wrote:  People in 13th century Italy had different criteria for good reasons -- which at the time were peer-reviewed and almost universally shared. It was reasonable then to accept them.
Um..no.
Peer-review is not just "all my peers agree with me". Peer review is a process by which other people dedicate themselves to proving your ideas wrong, you deliberately set out to prove the claim as false. This was in no way going on in religious institutions or amongst the religious in general during the 13th century. Peer-review involves testing both the methodology and the conclusions and seeing if they are demonstrable and repeatable. Religious claims in the 13th century didn't even have a methodology nor did they ever demonstrate their claims let alone subject them to peer-review.

Furthermore how universally shared an opinion is irrelevant. All you have done is taken an argument from authority and an argument from popularity and tried to weld some sciency sounding words (peer-review) to it, despite those words not meaning what you appear to think they mean. Religion doesn't use anything CLOSE to peer-review today, it sure as fuck didn't do so in the 13th century.

(09-10-2017 08:19 PM)Belaqua Wrote:  And my REAL point, for the present discussion, is that the fear of death did not feature among the reasons that were regarded as good.
That is absolute nonsense. You specifically mention 13th century Italy also known as the time when the Plague killed nearly 80% of that countries population in 4 years and you think fear of death wasn't a good reason for it? The entire religion is death-obsessed. How does god solve problems? Murder. Where can real justice be found? After death. Where is peace, and reward, and all the things the Priesthood promised the poor? After death. Where was eternal damnation for the slightest of offences? AFTER DEATH.


(09-10-2017 08:19 PM)Belaqua Wrote:  Was it there, throbbing away in the subconscious? I'm not qualified to say.
It didn't stop you before.Drinking Beverage

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