Ponder me this TTA science geeks
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09-11-2012, 08:57 AM
RE: Ponder me this TTA science geeks
(09-11-2012 08:43 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-11-2012 08:29 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  I'm just going to nod my head up and down and go "mmm, I see" every now and then to pretend I know wtf you're talking about.
Mmmm, I see I see.
But Chas, my scholarly chum, putting to one side that I still can't grasp the concept of two infinite's without the two being one, how do you know that the larger one is then the one in which the universe that kills everyone in our universe resides and our universe is then on the opposite.
Because even with two sort of lines of infinite universe's, that still doesn't wriggle out of my original point.
Yes one infinite multiverse may be bigger then another, but it is still infinite and so one of those universe things must kill us 5seconds from now. You can't just say, "but we're on the other line", because that line's infinite as well and so there is a universe that kills us 5seconds from now on that one too. And you can't say they cross each other because it doesn't matter if your a real number, a integer, a subset of subset whatever, if you're on an infinite line of multiverses, one of them must kill us 5seconds from now.

I'm just trying to aid your understanding of infinities; I haven't commented on multiverses.

However, with an infinite number of universes, there will be some number (possibly infinite) in which 'we' are all killed 5 seconds from now and some number (possibly infinite) in which 'we' are not all killed 5 seconds from now. If you are still here 5 seconds from now, you were in one of the latter number.

So what was your question about exponents?
You were talking about exponents, exponents, powers same thing.

And what I am saying is if there is a universe in which we are not killed in 5seconds, then there is a universe that does kill us in 5seconds. Because the options are a) kill is in 5seconds b) don't kill us in 5seconds
If both a and b act on a universe, you're getting killed.
It's hard to explain.
Say we are universe A.
There is a universe that can travel to other universes, universe B.
This other universe then has two options: a) kill us or b) don't.
Say Universe B choices b, don't kill us.
Universe A is not killed.
BUT
Because in an infinite multiverse, all choices must happen. SO, in another version of universe B, universe C, 'a' occurs and comes to our universe and kills us all.

Hence, you can't have any universes interact with other universes because as soon as you do, all possibilities happen to that one effected universe.

It doesn't work to say, well universe B does action a to universe A, and universe C does action b to another version of A, because then not all actions occur and so hence, not infinite.

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09-11-2012, 09:04 AM
Ponder me this TTA science geeks
(09-11-2012 08:57 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(09-11-2012 08:43 AM)Chas Wrote:  I'm just trying to aid your understanding of infinities; I haven't commented on multiverses.

However, with an infinite number of universes, there will be some number (possibly infinite) in which 'we' are all killed 5 seconds from now and some number (possibly infinite) in which 'we' are not all killed 5 seconds from now. If you are still here 5 seconds from now, you were in one of the latter number.

So what was your question about exponents?
You were talking about exponents, exponents, powers same thing.

And what I am saying is if there is a universe in which we are not killed in 5seconds, then there is a universe that does kill us in 5seconds. Because the options are a) kill is in 5seconds b) don't kill us in 5seconds
If both a and b act on a universe, you're getting killed.
It's hard to explain.
Say we are universe A.
There is a universe that can travel to other universes, universe B.
This other universe then has two options: a) kill us or b) don't.
Say Universe B choices b, don't kill us.
Universe A is not killed.
BUT
Because in an infinite multiverse, all choices must happen. SO, in another version of universe B, universe C, 'a' occurs and comes to our universe and kills us all.

Hence, you can't have any universes interact with other universes because as soon as you do, all possibilities happen to that one effected universe.

It doesn't work to say, well universe B does action a to universe A, and universe C does action b to another version of A, because then not all actions occur and so hence, not infinite.

Your logic is as sound as Kingsy's. Drinking Beverage

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09-11-2012, 09:11 AM
RE: Ponder me this TTA science geeks
Fucking earmuffs.

The state of stupidity of the "multiverse" is that lack of interconnected causality. It's as stupid as saying, goddidit, only with more masturbatory mathematics. And didn't I say, fuck the math?

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10-11-2012, 01:01 AM
RE: Ponder me this TTA science geeks
(09-11-2012 08:36 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(09-11-2012 01:06 AM)BryanS Wrote:  You forget to consider the 'anthropic principle' (a.k.a. circular reasoning for physicists Smile )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

Clearly you exist within one of the infinitely many universes where your prescribed outcome does not occur.
No, that's a shitty argument.
For every universe where I don't die 5seconds from now, there is a universe that does kill everyone 5seconds from now.
Because in infinite you can't leave 1 stone unturned, and everyone not dying from now is leaving a stone unturned.

The only way for everyone to live 5 seconds from now is to either a) the theory is false/inaccurate or b) it's not possible for travel between parallel universes.
Those are the only logical conclusions. This extra stuff with multiple infinite's is just woo woo if you ask me (which is why nobody asks me about physics). Partially because I don't understand the concept of 2 infinite's, but also because you can't logically have two separate infinites in regards to real things.
ie: Yes there is an infinite between 0,1,2,3... etc.. and a second between numbers, 1.829347,1.9782328,1.98... etc...
But you can't get part of a universe. It might work on paper, but it's gotta work in real life.
First, on the topic of infinity, there is a clear way to compare the 'cardinality' or relative size of infinities. The set of all real numbers is a higher cardinality than the set of all integers. The integers are countably infinite, while real numbers are uncountably infinite, making them a 'larger infinity'. Here's a starting point that isn't over-the-top deep into modern algebra:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countable_set

But I don't see how this infinity brouhaha you are worried about can be used in any way to draw the conclusions you do. It doesn't matter if there are an infinite number of universes that are doomed to immediate catastrophe. Even if a non-doomed universe is rare--something you offer no justification for--the fact that we live in a non-doomed universe establishes the fact that such universes are possible nomatter how rare non-doomed universes might be.

The anthropic principle doesn't establish the idea that there are in fact multiple universes. However the principle is useful in explaining the fallacy of assuming improbable = impossible while at the same time discounting our own existence. We use the same logic to justify the hope to find other life in the universe. Life and the earth-like requirements that life seems to require to thrive is so improbable, so rare, that if it were not for the fact we were here we might think life was impossible. Though life is rare in the universe, our existence means that among a very large number of other solar systems, there is a good chance of finding others that support life . We could use your line of argument to 'prove' any rare event is impossible, so it is not a good argument. To be clear, I'm not saying the antrhopic principle can prove the existence of a multiverse, but it does show your reliance on probabilities and infinity to disprove a multiverse to be misguided.

Your other point that a lack of travel between universes disproves their existence is equally fallacious. Just because we cannot travel between universes does not mean they don't exist. We can't 'see' subatomic particles. We can't with current technologies travel to see exoplanets we've discovered--which we haven't really ever been able to 'see' but can only infer from wobble in the planet's star.

The real weakness in the multiverse theory is not any flaw in the theory, but no real good way (yet) to falsify the theory. A fair criticism of the idea, like that for string theory as well, is that it's more 'fun with math' than it is science. The multiverse theories though have some remote possibility for evidence if we can detect remnants of universes that bubbled up and died off or perhaps collisions with our universe. There have been efforts to find such evidence with the WMAP and Planck spacecrafts.
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10-11-2012, 06:52 PM
RE: Ponder me this TTA science geeks
It isn't just an infinite number of universes, it's an infinite number of POSSIBLE universes.

Asking if there might me a way for someone to cross over and kill you is probably like asking if there might be one in which God is real. I'm willing to bet that even an infinite number of universes isn't enough for that to happen.
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11-11-2012, 01:44 AM
RE: Ponder me this TTA science geeks
(09-11-2012 08:57 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(09-11-2012 08:43 AM)Chas Wrote:  I'm just trying to aid your understanding of infinities; I haven't commented on multiverses.

However, with an infinite number of universes, there will be some number (possibly infinite) in which 'we' are all killed 5 seconds from now and some number (possibly infinite) in which 'we' are not all killed 5 seconds from now. If you are still here 5 seconds from now, you were in one of the latter number.

So what was your question about exponents?
You were talking about exponents, exponents, powers same thing.

And what I am saying is if there is a universe in which we are not killed in 5seconds, then there is a universe that does kill us in 5seconds. Because the options are a) kill is in 5seconds b) don't kill us in 5seconds
If both a and b act on a universe, you're getting killed.
It's hard to explain.
Say we are universe A.
There is a universe that can travel to other universes, universe B.
This other universe then has two options: a) kill us or b) don't.
Say Universe B choices b, don't kill us.
Universe A is not killed.
BUT
Because in an infinite multiverse, all choices must happen. SO, in another version of universe B, universe C, 'a' occurs and comes to our universe and kills us all.

Hence, you can't have any universes interact with other universes because as soon as you do, all possibilities happen to that one effected universe.

It doesn't work to say, well universe B does action a to universe A, and universe C does action b to another version of A, because then not all actions occur and so hence, not infinite.
There are also an infinite number of choices, not just two.

You might also want to note that,
infinite - infinity =/= 0
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13-11-2012, 03:30 AM
RE: Ponder me this TTA science geeks
(07-11-2012 05:10 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  If there is infinite amount of parallel universes doesn't that mean that there is a parallel universe where someone (alien or human or something else) finds a way to travel between these parallel and hence come to our parallel universe and kill us all 5seconds from now?

So because this hasn't happened does that make it safe to assume that there is not infinite number of parallel universes with infinite possibilities?
Hey muffs, think about this. There really are all these parallel universes and all these parallel realities, but there is no way for anyone or anything to travel between them, because of the laws of this and that, it is just impossible in every one of these universes. There, problem solved.

Cool

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24-11-2012, 11:13 AM
RE: Ponder me this TTA science geeks
(07-11-2012 05:10 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  If there is infinite amount of parallel universes doesn't that mean that there is a parallel universe where someone (alien or human or something else) finds a way to travel between these parallel and hence come to our parallel universe and kill us all 5seconds from now?

So because this hasn't happened does that make it safe to assume that there is not infinite number of parallel universes with infinite possibilities?
This isn't unlike asking: If there is an infinite number of universes doesn't that mean that at least one of them was intelligently designed by a pink space bunny in a tutu. No disrespect intended of course Tongue but your question is based on the assumption that IF multiple universes do exist, there is an actual way to travel between them. Also: Why do people actually bother to think about the possibility of time travel? Doesn't the fact that we have never met a visitor from the future clearly indicate that time travel (at least backwards) will never be possible? See what I mean? Big Grin

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25-11-2012, 06:28 AM
RE: Ponder me this TTA science geeks
(07-11-2012 05:10 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  If there is infinite amount of parallel universes doesn't that mean that there is a parallel universe where someone (alien or human or something else) finds a way to travel between these parallel and hence come to our parallel universe and kill us all 5seconds from now?

So because this hasn't happened does that make it safe to assume that there is not infinite number of parallel universes with infinite possibilities?
They'd have an infinite amount of universes to travel through before they reach us. ;D

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